Para 2 in a lower priced steel?

phillipsted · #21

I can't imagine that the marginal cost savings of a less expensive steel would lower the retail price very much - unless they forged them out of recycled leaf springs. :cool: In any event, this would probably have the result of cannibalizing the sales of other similar "value" knives like the Resilience.

I wouldn't buy one...

TedP

Stefan Roth · #22

I dislike this idea aswell. Just keep the Para2 as good as it is.

Donut · #23

My thoughts are that just because it wouldn't be good for a few people, doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

If you get some sales from people who are not willing to spend more than $70 or $80 for a knife and actually open their eyes, it can do many things. Plus, you would be getting a very nice knife into more peoples' hands.

The Deacon · #24

Donut wrote:My thoughts are that just because it wouldn't be good for a few people, doesn't mean it is a bad idea.

If you get some sales from people who are not willing to spend more than $70 or $80 for a knife and actually open their eyes, it can do many things. Plus, you would be getting a very nice knife into more peoples' hands.

From where I sit, the question is not whether anyone would buy a $70 or $80 Para2 who would pass on one at $100 to $110, I'm sure a significant number of people would. The real question is whether there's any even halfway decent blade steel that would lower the street price that much.

Brock O Lee · #25

Nope, a lower end steel PM2 would not appeal to me at all

DeathBySnooSnoo · #26

Considering that I only buy the Para2 for the steel(s) this concept just doesn't do it for me at all.

But I don't think that it is a bad one IF a version can be made that doesn't diminish the idea of the original.

jossta · #27

Yeah, I think the issues aren't that people will buy them, it's that now all the non afi's will buy the lower priced version, where as a lot of the afi's will only buy the sprints, leaving the original to lose out on sales.

That and what Deacon said about it not actually lowering the cost that much.

PARATOM · #28

I agree with a member that posted above somewhere. If you drop the price point and bring in a different steel then you would ruin the reputation of the PM2. Trust me, im all for not spending as much on a knife, but this would only work for some spydercos. Due to the massive attention and popularity this knife has got as it is, it would do more harm to the knife than the $25 your spending.

You drop the price to $75, demand skyrockets, Spyderco cant handle the production so build quality goes down. Alot of people trash how PM2 quality went down. Bad news.

Say BMW makes a $10,000 M3, same body style as the 40K plus models, just cheaper engine parts, suspension, etc... You think they car will last long or will get a good rep? No, you kill the M3 brand... Ok maybe i went a little into left field, but im sure someone understand what im trying to say :D

Ravana · #29

30,000* But that's neither here nor there.

As someone who plans on picking up a PM2 in the next year I would be opposed to it. Spyderco already has the Endura for those who want a large blade in a lower priced steel. Para2 has a niche in the Spyderco market, doubt it will budge from it.

JacksonKnives · #30

PARATOM wrote:I agree with a member that posted above somewhere. If you drop the price point and bring in a different steel then you would ruin the reputation of the PM2. Trust me, im all for not spending as much on a knife, but this would only work for some spydercos. Due to the massive attention and popularity this knife has got as it is, it would do more harm to the knife than the $25 your spending.

You drop the price to $75, demand skyrockets, Spyderco cant handle the production so build quality goes down. Alot of people trash how PM2 quality went down. Bad news.

Say BMW makes a $10,000 M3, same body style as the 40K plus models, just cheaper engine parts, suspension, etc... You think they car will last long or will get a good rep? No, you kill the M3 brand... Ok maybe i went a little into left field, but im sure someone understand what im trying to say :D

BTW you have to put things into perspective. Dropping 25 bucks may not seem like alot, but thats 25% of the $100 price (hence 40k to 10K BMW)

These are good points, but on top of that...
a) there's already demand that nearly outstrips supply...
b) changing the steel *could* bring the price down if it cuts down significantly on the amount of work Spyderco has to put into each knife... but S30V is a steel they are *very* familiar with. I'd hazard a guess that if you went to a steel without the wear-resistance of S30V, you could cut down on the time/consumables in grinding, but I don't imagine you'd see any savings beyond that. Heat treat? Fixed cost. Cutting blanks? Fixed cost. Grinding/finishing/sharpening are the only areas I can imagine you'd see any savings.

If Sal could find a steel that costs him $25 less per blade, great, but if the amount of S30V in the Para2 is worth $5, and the grinding work is only reduced by 30%, I think you're unlikely to see anywhere near that kind of reduction, even moving to steel that they could get for free.

Yes, they did it for the Manix2, because (I'm guessing here) they had access to a supply of 154CM that was dirt cheap and ideally sized for the run, and they were producing in quantities significant enough to make the change in heat-treat setup worthwhile. Same decision with the BD-1/FRCP model. But watch the changeover to S30V in the supply chain: I'd imagine the ever-increasing demand on Spyderco's production capacity in Golden will have a bigger effect on the price than the change in steel.
If anything, Sal's decision to go with BD-1 for the translucent model presents a significant *risk* on his part (rather than a savings in materials cost), but one that he's willing to take because he loves us and knows that some of us want an alternative to S30V.

Blerv · #31

The thing is that a knife like the Para2 is part of the aficionado line. While a huge seller and popular on the forums I have never seen a "normal consumer" with one. Heck, they aren't even at the local knife shops.

The Tenacious line is an answer to the people who need their ideas refined to what a modern pocket knife is. While I think they would appreciate a Stretch, Para2, or Caly 3.5 (and others) chances are they won't get there without serious nudging. Even then hurdling the concept of value is going to be a tough one...I've actually heard many of those folks say, "If a Tenacious is $28 why would I pay ____ for ____?"

The main complaint people have with the standard Manix2 is it's hollow-ground. The one they have with the Manix2 Lightweight is they wish it had a "better" steel.

Donut · #32

There are plenty of good ideas here, thanks a lot for the opinions.

Blerv · #33

As a side note I would really love to try a chisel grind done by Spyderco. If it saves a few bucks on a Para sprint that would be cool!

PARATOM · #34

Ravana wrote:30,000* But that's neither here nor there.

Touche lol i just re-read my post and laughed at myself. *edited*

JNewell · #35

Utterly and completely agree. :D There's just no bang for the buck in going "below" S30V unless you go waaaay down the performance scale. That's all IMHO, obviously, but I really think that's right.

FWIW, the standard Manix 2 is headed for S30V this year, too. I guess there wasn't enough savings in continuing to use 154CM to make it worthwhile. I think there's a message here for the Para2 question. :spyder:

bh49 wrote:Just wondering how much less expensive this knife would be?
You can buy Para2 around $100. IMHO this is a bargain, considering what are you getting and prices for most of the new knives either made by Spyderco or competition.

Sht · #36

You got to see this from spyderco's point of view. They have dozens of knives that are cheaper/ lower end. They already have way more overlap btw knives then anyone. That said maybe a value sprint run with a sub s30v price would work out? Idk

mongatu · #37

Imo, S30V is already "low end" enough.

Blerv · #38

Sht wrote:You got to see this from spyderco's point of view. They have dozens of knives that are cheaper/ lower end. They already have way more overlap btw knives then anyone. That said maybe a value sprint run with a sub s30v price would work out? Idk

^-- Yea building knives fast enough seems the main problem. A good problem amongst them nonetheless. =)

Evil D · #39

I have mixed feelings about this idea. On one hand, the design would be more accessible and that's a good thing. On the other hand, it would be like swapping a 4 cylinder into a Ferrari so more people could own them....when none of them would really be getting the full experience that it was designed to bring. I've found that this knife (and likely every other knife) only shines brighter when you bring it out with better steel. Of course, somewhere there's a guy thinking "man a 4 banger Ferrari would be great think of all the mpg it would get!", which is to say that "better steel" is all in what you like. 2 years ago i couldn't imagine spending $100 on a pocket knife...since then i've learned that you get your moneys worth when you do.

Ankerson · #40

Evil D wrote:I have mixed feelings about this idea. On one hand, the design would be more accessible and that's a good thing. On the other hand, it would be like swapping a 4 cylinder into a Ferrari so more people could own them....when none of them would really be getting the full experience that it was designed to bring. I've found that this knife (and likely every other knife) only shines brighter when you bring it out with better steel. Of course, somewhere there's a guy thinking "man a 4 banger Ferrari would be great think of all the mpg it would get!", which is to say that "better steel" is all in what you like. 2 years ago i couldn't imagine spending $100 on a pocket knife...since then i've learned that you get your moneys worth when you do.

With Something like N690 it will perform better than some would believe.

If you like VG-10 then I would guess you would also like N690.