I found my self recently with the prospect of looking @ a few new knife designs..
I was approached by a young man and his friends who wanted to show me some knives they designed..
I like looking a new ideas so I said yes..They prefaced the viewing of the knives with remarks that they were tactical and fighting knives..and if I had any martial arts experience I'd be able to use them even better..
The knives had some cool features but they had no feel to them..They obviously were NOT designed to be used in an sort of combat..nor martial art aplication..or as we say here MBC...
When I asked them where they got the idea they said from looking @ other knives and because its obvious..
Now what became obvious to me was they had no idea of what they were talking about..
I asked them WHAT kind of martial art they did..and for how long..
They had no experience except one had a few lessons in TKD...
I politely told them why the designs weren't really in touch with what they were intended for and politely excused myself...
How can anyone design martial arts knives if they've NEVER done any?
How can anyone design tactical knives if they have never been in that spot?
I'm not the best martial artist nor the biggest baddest dude out there..BUT i have spent my whole life doing martial arts..
Not a few weeks not a couple of belt levels..
not a few seminars...nor a few weeks training with a friend...
and almost all of it in a weapons based art form at that..
Mike, James, Ernie, Hock, Kelly, Graciela...for example...we're all in the same boat..
We are MARTIAL ARTISTS...
How can anyone come to us and say "oh I've never done any martial art but I've designed a perfect knife for you" ( pick one of the mentioned names and substitute it for the you)
Give me a break!
Spyderco- MBC has Mike Janich, James Keating, Masaad Ayoob and myself...we are martial artists and our designs reflect what we've learned and what we teach..Our designs reflect the combined experiences of our weapons work...
and we give that back to all of you who buy Spyderco MBC products...
Our stuff may not be the hottest on the market...the coolest toys..but you can be assured that careful thought and experience went into each piece..
that they are extremely useful edged tools and they will do ANY martial arts, MBC or tactical application that is called for..
and then we put our names ( OK my logo not my name!) on each of our designs...
There are other real deal MBC types out there..Emerson, Strider,MOD, et al....
yes our toys cost a bit more but at least you get what you pay for.. purpose driven-design driven edged tools!
Thanks Spyderco for having a real deal MBC line up...
bram
Design without background
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Michael Janich
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Bram:
I'm constantly amazed at some of the weird garbage that people try to pass off as martial bladeware. Even some very reputable tactical knife companies have been suckered by goofy, impractical designs -- a fact that makes me wonder how well they really understand their own products and the market they serve.
As a contributing editor to Tactical Knives, I get to test a lot of different knives. If you read my articles, you'll notice that I generally do favorable reviews. Although that had prompted some readers to believe that I write to make every product sound good, in realty, I've turned down the opportunity to review quite a number of popular knives because the design and quality were substandard. Often it's what we DON'T say about a product that speaks the loudest.
Stay safe,
mike j
I'm constantly amazed at some of the weird garbage that people try to pass off as martial bladeware. Even some very reputable tactical knife companies have been suckered by goofy, impractical designs -- a fact that makes me wonder how well they really understand their own products and the market they serve.
As a contributing editor to Tactical Knives, I get to test a lot of different knives. If you read my articles, you'll notice that I generally do favorable reviews. Although that had prompted some readers to believe that I write to make every product sound good, in realty, I've turned down the opportunity to review quite a number of popular knives because the design and quality were substandard. Often it's what we DON'T say about a product that speaks the loudest.
Stay safe,
mike j
I'm not a knife maker and I have no experience with MBC, but I do have quite a background in unarmed martial arts.
Speaking as an average joe, I would rather rely on a sharpened stick than a specially designed fancy knife that took concius thought to open and didn't provide a number of comfortable grips.
That's why I like Spyderco's. They work on the K.I.S.S theory.
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Speaking as an average joe, I would rather rely on a sharpened stick than a specially designed fancy knife that took concius thought to open and didn't provide a number of comfortable grips.
That's why I like Spyderco's. They work on the K.I.S.S theory.
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Designing a Knife is not an easy task.First, the idea for the blade has to be drawn out on paper.The paper rendition is now made up into an actual working "Prototype".It is from this step that the Knife starts to take shape.What looks good on paper does not always feel good in the hand.Now, subtle changes can make or break a great Knife design.
Some points to consider are:
-Does the handle to blade ratio feel alright
-Is the "weight" all in the handle
-Is the balance point where you want it
-are the handles too thick/too thin
-does the overall function of the blade fall within the perimeters of the original design requirements
Here are some of the small changes that can affect a blade 's function;
-changing the length of the blade(Or handle).Sometimes a 1/4" -1/2" difference in the blade or handle can be felt during use
-Handle thickness.Slimming down or "Contouring" the handle
-Tapering the tang or drilling holes in the tang underneath the handle area to change the Blade's balance
-The actual shape of the handle.Finger grooves might feel good , but they can limit the user to only one grip.Grab a round handled fighting knife in low light under stress.Can you immediately determine if the edge is positioned cutting edge up or down
-Is the guard to big or too small for the function of the knife
Some of my best selling blades have gone through several changes through the years.The knife a maker believes is perfect may not live up too a customer's specs either.Sometimes a Maker's Artistic ego has to step aside in order to meet the intended needs of a customer.If the maker believes a customer's design will not work, he can suggest changes or politely turn down the order.
Physical abilities (OR disabilities) can determine some of the blade's options.Does the customer suffer from Arthiritis?Is he older and needs a longer handle due to limited grip strength?etc.
Any style of knife can cut someone, but a Blade used for MBC should flow and come alive in the users hand.Be open to suggested changes (OK,Criticism) of your new "Wonder knife design.Your blade styles will evolve into functional , user friendly patterns.
Mickey
Some points to consider are:
-Does the handle to blade ratio feel alright
-Is the "weight" all in the handle
-Is the balance point where you want it
-are the handles too thick/too thin
-does the overall function of the blade fall within the perimeters of the original design requirements
Here are some of the small changes that can affect a blade 's function;
-changing the length of the blade(Or handle).Sometimes a 1/4" -1/2" difference in the blade or handle can be felt during use
-Handle thickness.Slimming down or "Contouring" the handle
-Tapering the tang or drilling holes in the tang underneath the handle area to change the Blade's balance
-The actual shape of the handle.Finger grooves might feel good , but they can limit the user to only one grip.Grab a round handled fighting knife in low light under stress.Can you immediately determine if the edge is positioned cutting edge up or down
-Is the guard to big or too small for the function of the knife
Some of my best selling blades have gone through several changes through the years.The knife a maker believes is perfect may not live up too a customer's specs either.Sometimes a Maker's Artistic ego has to step aside in order to meet the intended needs of a customer.If the maker believes a customer's design will not work, he can suggest changes or politely turn down the order.
Physical abilities (OR disabilities) can determine some of the blade's options.Does the customer suffer from Arthiritis?Is he older and needs a longer handle due to limited grip strength?etc.
Any style of knife can cut someone, but a Blade used for MBC should flow and come alive in the users hand.Be open to suggested changes (OK,Criticism) of your new "Wonder knife design.Your blade styles will evolve into functional , user friendly patterns.
Mickey
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jim_l_clifton
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Bram & Mick,
Understand the vent,answer?? Unknown, as an example,go to a gun show look at the knives that have a Seal logo on them,people grab them like crazy,no balance,grip sucks & they are just pieces of metal,dead weight!! Try explaininfg form & function of the Gunting(yeah ,Bram you "know" I like it)!As for "some" MA'S they still think they can disarm anyone using a blade! You guys will go crazy trying to explain to the "brain dead"! I don't even try anymore!!
jim
Understand the vent,answer?? Unknown, as an example,go to a gun show look at the knives that have a Seal logo on them,people grab them like crazy,no balance,grip sucks & they are just pieces of metal,dead weight!! Try explaininfg form & function of the Gunting(yeah ,Bram you "know" I like it)!As for "some" MA'S they still think they can disarm anyone using a blade! You guys will go crazy trying to explain to the "brain dead"! I don't even try anymore!!
jim
Thanks guys..
Mike is one of the best..WHY? he writes about knives..plays with knives,, invents & designs knives, teaches knife work, teaches martial arts, especially Flipino Arts that live and die by the use of weapons & especially edged ones...has been there done that military "tactical side"....
And his stuff is clean and to the point..
Mickey is a custom knife maker..and a martial arts instructor, a knife instructor, and a full time LEO..another been there done that tactical type of guy..
His knives reflect that..
Yog & JIm are martial artists..Jim plays with steel teaches steel and works with LEOs a bunch..
Look at the ones who respond to the thread..
You guys are proof of the pudding as they say..
Thanks guys...!!!!!
Be safe!
Bram
Mike is one of the best..WHY? he writes about knives..plays with knives,, invents & designs knives, teaches knife work, teaches martial arts, especially Flipino Arts that live and die by the use of weapons & especially edged ones...has been there done that military "tactical side"....
And his stuff is clean and to the point..
Mickey is a custom knife maker..and a martial arts instructor, a knife instructor, and a full time LEO..another been there done that tactical type of guy..
His knives reflect that..
Yog & JIm are martial artists..Jim plays with steel teaches steel and works with LEOs a bunch..
Look at the ones who respond to the thread..
You guys are proof of the pudding as they say..
Thanks guys...!!!!!
Be safe!
Bram
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jim_l_clifton
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Bram,
I was helping out at a gun show & different people come to the table to buy knives ,some go for the latest most expensive,current "best" knife,some came for info.! One gentleman came & asked about a knife(not new)asked to see & handle it,asked how much, returned it & said he would return! Guy next to me asked why did you give him that instead of****?? Told him he was a MA & knife player, guy said ,"that old man"!! Do you know him ,I said no, but can't you see the way he moves, the knife he chose & the way he handled it!! Guy, shook his head ,he had no clue!! This is why I stated, I don't even bother trying to explain anymore!As for you Bram & your Gunting classes,look forward to them every year, always have fun & learn something!
jim
I was helping out at a gun show & different people come to the table to buy knives ,some go for the latest most expensive,current "best" knife,some came for info.! One gentleman came & asked about a knife(not new)asked to see & handle it,asked how much, returned it & said he would return! Guy next to me asked why did you give him that instead of****?? Told him he was a MA & knife player, guy said ,"that old man"!! Do you know him ,I said no, but can't you see the way he moves, the knife he chose & the way he handled it!! Guy, shook his head ,he had no clue!! This is why I stated, I don't even bother trying to explain anymore!As for you Bram & your Gunting classes,look forward to them every year, always have fun & learn something!
jim
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jim_l_clifton
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Just re-read my post and I’m not sure it came out the way I meant it – **** this impersonal internet.
Being mainly versed in unarmed martial arts I’m NOT saying I would glibly take on an attacker who was armed with a knife.
What I am saying is that put in the situation where there is a knife wielding maniac at close range in front of me I would rather reach to my pocket for say my Spyderco Native than I would for say a Balisong. Now I know MJ likes Balisongs, (so do I, I’ve owned several), but the Balisong does require a degree of finger and mental dexterity, something I would not like to rely on after my body had just dropped a couple of gallons of adrenaline into my system. The Native on the other hand is such a simple device that I know that the instant it leaves my pocket I have a fully open and locked knife in my hand with no noticeable conscious thought.
I especially didn’t want to imply anything about the Gunting. Having trained with a Kubutan and having experience going from lying flat on the floor to hovering 12” off the ground in under a second because I’ve been on the wrong end of someone else demonstrating a Kubutan, I’m very interested in the non-lethal aspects of the Gunting, looks as though it would be very useful for trapping techniques. The only reason I don’t own a Gunting is that it would be relegated to show purposes, with my countries repressive knife laws there is no way I could take it out on the street.
The comment about the sharpened stick might have been a bit glib, but what I was getting at was that if I was in the above situation (BG+knife=trouble), and I had a Tanjo in my hand (about 18” of heavy hardwood), there is no way I’m going to drop it in favour of a Balisong that’s in my pocket. My Native maybe, but not a Balisong <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Being mainly versed in unarmed martial arts I’m NOT saying I would glibly take on an attacker who was armed with a knife.
What I am saying is that put in the situation where there is a knife wielding maniac at close range in front of me I would rather reach to my pocket for say my Spyderco Native than I would for say a Balisong. Now I know MJ likes Balisongs, (so do I, I’ve owned several), but the Balisong does require a degree of finger and mental dexterity, something I would not like to rely on after my body had just dropped a couple of gallons of adrenaline into my system. The Native on the other hand is such a simple device that I know that the instant it leaves my pocket I have a fully open and locked knife in my hand with no noticeable conscious thought.
I especially didn’t want to imply anything about the Gunting. Having trained with a Kubutan and having experience going from lying flat on the floor to hovering 12” off the ground in under a second because I’ve been on the wrong end of someone else demonstrating a Kubutan, I’m very interested in the non-lethal aspects of the Gunting, looks as though it would be very useful for trapping techniques. The only reason I don’t own a Gunting is that it would be relegated to show purposes, with my countries repressive knife laws there is no way I could take it out on the street.
The comment about the sharpened stick might have been a bit glib, but what I was getting at was that if I was in the above situation (BG+knife=trouble), and I had a Tanjo in my hand (about 18” of heavy hardwood), there is no way I’m going to drop it in favour of a Balisong that’s in my pocket. My Native maybe, but not a Balisong <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Hi Bram, Mickey and Jim (some fine folks I've had the pleasure of meeting at one time or another),
Not much to add here. It is indeed a joke that folks with little to no experience would pontificate on such a serious subject as self-protection, but that's what we see all the time. Better to just ignore them and move on, I guess.
Not much to add here. It is indeed a joke that folks with little to no experience would pontificate on such a serious subject as self-protection, but that's what we see all the time. Better to just ignore them and move on, I guess.
Hi Bram.
Where's the best place to buy a CRMIPT ?
It's a real worry even carrying small / medium sized knives over here, even when it is carried as a tool and not neccessarily for self protection. So a sharp cornered pocket tool sounds as though it would hit the spot just right, so to speak <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Where's the best place to buy a CRMIPT ?
It's a real worry even carrying small / medium sized knives over here, even when it is carried as a tool and not neccessarily for self protection. So a sharp cornered pocket tool sounds as though it would hit the spot just right, so to speak <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Yog..
Check with Darren (Daz) @ dee.zel@lineone.net
He's a certified Gunting Instructor in Slough
and he's whom you'd go through to get a Drone or Crmipt...
see ya
Bram
Check with Darren (Daz) @ dee.zel@lineone.net
He's a certified Gunting Instructor in Slough
and he's whom you'd go through to get a Drone or Crmipt...
see ya
Bram
It's a commonly held fallacy in the realm of invention and discovery (any industry), that only 'experts' can create something new and quite possibly 'unique'…. Sometimes it's the fresh perspective of the non-entrenched ‘newbie’ that has just enough of a new idea to bring about radical design changes that rock the industry in question. It is commonly known in science and engineering that it’s the ‘technicians’, and not the scientist, that in fact makes numerous advances in science. Yes, there are some tremendously experienced martial artists in the cutlery industry that deserve recognition... and they do at least by me (I carry a Gunting as my EDC); but don't necessarily and arbitrarily reject the designs of amateurs just because they don’t have the ‘established expert’ status. As an example, and only as an example—I’m a tinkerer... I only 'dabble' in the martial arts... (But I’ve ‘dabbled’ for well over 20-years), and I'm a mechanical designer by trade, I don’t have the martial arts background that you speak of… I don’t hold any belts, ranks or certifications; but I’ve still come up with some rather 'nifty' blade ideas for self-defense. I visualized and kinesthetically thought through the design… thinking of the drag from resilient skin, cloth or denim, thinking of bone, and I built a prototype that scared the******out of me in it’s surpassing my imagination (Although I created this design nearly 12-years ago… it turns out another knife designer thought of it nearly 25-years ago… oh well). Okay, so maybe they're good ideas that could pass the crucible of the martial arts and cutlery enthusiasts... and maybe not... but don’t dismiss the tinkerer arbitrarily just because he or she isn’t an ‘established expert’. Among two of my favorite knife designers are Lacy Szabo (I know I misspelled it…<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> and Fred Perrin, and both of whom are tremendous martial artists… sooooo their martial arts have obviously influenced their designs (which are in many cases, are extremely ‘radical’, going completely against established doctrine!), so these two men obviously embody your point…. However… it’s still a good idea to judge designs based on the individual merit of the design itself, and not necessarily on the lack of credentials of the designer… and try to encompass new ideas even if they seem to go against the grain. Bram, I love the Gunting… and I’m waiting with great anticipation for your next design… which I believe will replace the Gunting in my professional attire.
Bildrac: you are not the kind of gu I'm refering too..ROFL..you're "dabbbling" for 20 some years qualifies you..I'd take your opinion..
you deserve the input...
Laci and Fre are both good friends of mine and I respect their designs and input...
hmm they're big time martial artists and knife instructors and users...
I don't out right dismiss the newbie..but there's I have an idea..which is OK...compared to I have designed an exclusive Martial Arts style knife without any idea of martial arts except the movies I watch on TV...
Might as well take their input on our self defense curriculumn and methods...
LOL.....
thanks for the posts all of you..
again..
Its the martial arts guys responding...very telling...
be safe
Bram
you deserve the input...
Laci and Fre are both good friends of mine and I respect their designs and input...
hmm they're big time martial artists and knife instructors and users...
I don't out right dismiss the newbie..but there's I have an idea..which is OK...compared to I have designed an exclusive Martial Arts style knife without any idea of martial arts except the movies I watch on TV...
Might as well take their input on our self defense curriculumn and methods...
LOL.....
thanks for the posts all of you..
again..
Its the martial arts guys responding...very telling...
be safe
Bram
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Sword and Shield
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: USA
I have no MBC or martial arts training whatsoever, so I'll get that said. Now, to the meat of the question.
Isn't designing a knife for MBC sans MBC training kind of like making a drill with no clue on how one is used? Or a firearm? Looks are fine, but when things get tough, looks must perform.
Wouldn't someone whose only knowledge of MBC being movies be a classic case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?" Just a thought. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Keepin' it real...real sharp, that is.
Isn't designing a knife for MBC sans MBC training kind of like making a drill with no clue on how one is used? Or a firearm? Looks are fine, but when things get tough, looks must perform.
Wouldn't someone whose only knowledge of MBC being movies be a classic case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?" Just a thought. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Keepin' it real...real sharp, that is.
Thanks for the tip BRAM.
Unfortunately I fell foul by not being a LEO.
Any chance of a drone being produced with a non-red handle ?
I know the thinking of not confusing live Guntings with training Guntings, but if your trying not to draw attention to your exotic piece of pocket sized protection, bright red isn't too good a colour.
BTW
What Gunting like features (if any) will the TUSOK have ?
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
Unfortunately I fell foul by not being a LEO.
Any chance of a drone being produced with a non-red handle ?
I know the thinking of not confusing live Guntings with training Guntings, but if your trying not to draw attention to your exotic piece of pocket sized protection, bright red isn't too good a colour.
BTW
What Gunting like features (if any) will the TUSOK have ?
Walk softly, carry a big stick.
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Michael Janich
- Member
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
To all:
Thanks for contributing. This is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread. In my opinion, it comes down to doing one's homework -- either before OR after the fact. If you have extensive background in knifework, you'll probably have the insight to come up with a functional design. If you don't, but choose to design a knife that you think is functional, don't stop there. Put it to use and see if it really performs the way you intended it to.
An intelligent "tinkerer" who thinks outside the box can certainly design a brilliant knife and outdo a recognized expert. At the same time, a less intelligent tinkerer can design a completely impractical design and have it validated by a support group of armchair commandos who also don't have a clue. Until someone un-asses the couch and tries to make the thing work, it's all theory.
Thanks again for a cool thread.
Stay safe,
mike j
Thanks for contributing. This is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread. In my opinion, it comes down to doing one's homework -- either before OR after the fact. If you have extensive background in knifework, you'll probably have the insight to come up with a functional design. If you don't, but choose to design a knife that you think is functional, don't stop there. Put it to use and see if it really performs the way you intended it to.
An intelligent "tinkerer" who thinks outside the box can certainly design a brilliant knife and outdo a recognized expert. At the same time, a less intelligent tinkerer can design a completely impractical design and have it validated by a support group of armchair commandos who also don't have a clue. Until someone un-asses the couch and tries to make the thing work, it's all theory.
Thanks again for a cool thread.
Stay safe,
mike j
On the other hand, it takes background to be able to appreciate design. None of my friends seemed to be able to appreciate my Spyderco Gunting, until I bought a trainer. Then they can safely be shown a few things, and the light bulb starts to slowly illuminate. I will admit that when I received my Gunting in the mail, it seemed very strange and impractical. It took some homework, but now it's my "everywhere" knife.