The future of S30V ?

[JNewell]

Someone is delusional if that's what they are saying.

Slightly better toughness, yeah maybe, Crucible says that.

Edge retention? Not happening in this world if both are at the same HRC based on my testing and CATRA.

Crucible says toughness and edge retention are two different things...

[Ankerson]

Crucible says toughness and edge retention are two different things...

Yeah I know.

S35VN rolls and flattens way to easy compared to S30V. (My main gripe)

I think Crucible went too far in the other direction.

I think S35VN needs to be a lot harder from what I have seen, like 2 points or so, but I don't know if it can be taken to that hardness production wise.

There needs to be a hardness increase to offset the rolling and flattening, I would say at the min 61 HRC, but I don't know for sure.

[JNewell]

I know you know :D and I bet Chris knows, too...this use of nouns by Crucible is a little bit of a challenge for normal people... :eek: :D

Yeah I know.

S35VN rolls and flattens way to easy compared to S30V. (My main gripe)

I think Crucible went too far in the other direction.

I think S35VN needs to be a lot harder from what I have seen, like 2 points or so, but I don't know if it can be taken to that hardness production wise.

There needs to be a hardness increase to offset the rolling and flattening, I would say at the min 61 HRC, but I don't know for sure.

[chuck_roxas45]

So it looks like S30V still got a bright outlook ahead....

[Slash]

Main reason I don't own a crk is I can't justify spending $400 for s30v and wont spend it for s35vn either.

[D1omedes]

Ankerson, have you heard of any other manufacturer's that are truly sold on Elmax? I know Kershaw has used some but I don't know if it will take over its ZT line.

[Cliff Stamp]

I think S35VN needs to be a lot harder from what I have seen, like 2 points or so, but I don't know if it can be taken to that hardness production wise.

They have the same hardening response.

[Ankerson]

So it looks like S30V still got a bright outlook ahead....

I think so. :)

S30V is working well for me at work along with S90V and CTS-XHP.

Currently using my Umnumzaan at work, put it in my work rotation to see how it does, S30V at 59.5 HRC (Tested) and it's doing fine.

[Ankerson]

Ankerson, have you heard of any other manufacturer's that are truly sold on Elmax? I know Kershaw has used some but I don't know if it will take over its ZT line.

Time will tell as more knives are released in ELMAX, it is getting very positive reports from those who are using it.

I think once they figure out that the S35VN bandwagon really isn't all that great to be on, and they will as time goes on, there will be changes.

I figure one of 3 things will likely happen:

1) They will get the heat treaters to harden it to 61 HRC min to hopefully fix the rolling and flattening problems.

2) They will do nothing and blame the steel manufacturer or say there isn't a problem trying to hide the issues because they have too much S35VN on hand.

3) They will change back to S30V or to another steel.


Hopefully it will be 1 or 3 and not 2.

In the end what is happening with S35VN is what I figured would happen once knives started to hit the market and as time goes on there will be more of the same. I saw this stuff coming 100 miles away with blinders on...... I was staying positive and keeping my thoughts to myself, I figured it might have been better, but now I know my orginal thoughts on S35VN were correct.

[Cliff Stamp]

Edge retention? Not happening in this world if both are at the same HRC based on my testing and CATRA.

CATRA is a high volume, very low sharpness based comparison. The end numbers they produce by default are when the sharpness is extremely low, often 5-10% of optimal.

S35VN has a lower carbide volume and thus would generate a superior edge retention comparison if the end points where compared higher and/or a lower angle was used. Reeve also tends to prefer a softer hardening and this in general is much more suitable for a lower carbide volume.

In short, it is easily possible that his statement is true as edge retention is depend on the medium being cut, how it is cut and how dull the blade gets before the comparison is made.

Who has the CATRA on S35VN?

[Ankerson]

CATRA is a high volume, very low sharpness based comparison. The end numbers they produce by default are when the sharpness is extremely low, often 5-10% of optimal.

S35VN has a lower carbide volume and thus would generate a superior edge retention comparison if the end points where compared higher and/or a lower angle was used. Reeve also tends to prefer a softer hardening and this in general is much more suitable for a lower carbide volume.

In short, it is easily possible that his statement is true as edge retention is depend on the medium being cut, how it is cut and how dull the blade gets before the comparison is made.

Who has the CATRA on S35VN?

http://www.bucorp.com/files/CATRA_Test_Results.pdf

[SQSAR]

Interesting Link, , , Thanks Jim.

[D1omedes]

Thanks for the thoughts, Ankerson.

Looking at the Spyderco X-Mas Raffle thread, the Para 2 is going to S35VN as well. My bet would be that S35VN is S30V's replacement.

I just find it a bit strange to make such a baby step. Perhaps Crucible has worked out good deals with CRK, Spyderco and others on S35VN that it makes little business sense to make a jump to Elmax? I'm not trying to start a conspiracy theory but this just stumps me.

[Cliff Stamp]

Perhaps Crucible has worked out good deals with CRK, Spyderco and others on S35VN that it makes little business sense to make a jump to Elmax?

There are marketing costs associated with changing a steel. S30V has a brand reputation and thus has a marketing profit associated with it. Elmax does not, thus it has a marketing loss associated with it. In order to make it profitable to switch the gain in consumer response has to be greater than this difference. This is not a conspiracy, it is just business. As well production companies can not trivially switch materials, while something can test very well you have to look at things like :

-consistency of supply
-quality of grade
-uniformity of alloy content

If you roll into production and were to switch from S30V to Elmax it would mean adjusting grinding and heat treating at a minimum. After a short period you find out that (hypothetically) there are inconsistencies in batch alloy which are causing too large a heat treating response and you are getting customer complaints - what do you do now? If you roll back to S30V how to you resell the "inferior" material. If you forge ahead how do you deal with the batch variances?

Generally the production market would lag behind the custom market and I would expect people like Glesser to talk to the custom makers they collaborate with, get some samples, run some in a few small quantities, try a few sprint runs, talk to other people in the industry, etc. . and after everything comes back roses again and again, only then consider such a dramatic shift as to jump from S30V to Elmax, as it isn't just a steel type it is a whole different supplier.

Note the reason that steels also change in small amounts is for two reasons :

1) changing steels isn't trivial, there is a whole mix of properties that come into play on a knife edge and they all have to be in balance

2) you have to market the change

S30V was promoted as the super steel which would replace all stainless, large or small blades it was the steel to use. It is reasonable to take something like S35VN and make an argument something like :

"We looked at the customer response and combined that with what we needed to see as a maker/manufacturer and tweaked the steel to offer improved manufacturing abilities, a significant improvement in toughness and to maintain the level of edge retention that S30V was known for as a knife steel."

If you jump right to Elmax, an existing steel which has been around before S30V, then what do you say then :

"Yeah, ok, it is like this - we didn't do our research, there was an existing product with a completely different makeup from a different supplier which is vastly superior in every way. Sorry about that. Take it easy."

The reality is Elmax is different than S30V, calling it superior is like calling D2 superior to A2. It is different, just like ZDP is different than S90V, you would have to be very particular and specific to say which one is superior as both would be superior at different things.

[The Deacon]

If S35VN can take a better finish more easily than S30V can, that may also be a factor. Am sure I'm not the only knife buyer who, given the choice between a more attractive blade with excellent edge holding, wear resistance, etc. and a less attractive blade with even better edge holding, wear resistance, etc. will choose the former.

[Joshua J.]

I still avoid S30V because of the stigma it had five or six years ago, but am much more accepting of S35VN. I guess I subconsciously think that something needs fixing in S30V and any change from that formula makes it better. I would like to see S35VN replace S30V.
Really what I want is for someone to fix S60V, since that was actually put into regular production on several knives and was a pretty big step up in wear resistance.

I should just be happy we have so much CPM M-4.

[D1omedes]

Cliff Stamp, thank you for all that. See, I knew there was something to my thoughts - that's why I made sure to state that I didn't think this was a conspiracy or anything. Are you in the metallurgy industry? You seem to hit on some very valid points.

What is your opinion about S30V being replaced?

[5.56]

I would prefer that manufacturers not replace S30v with a sub par steel just because it's easier to work with.

[The Deacon]

I would prefer that manufacturers not replace S30v with a sub par steel just because it's easier to work with.

Just because some self styled internet steel expert labels it sub par does not make it so.

[5.56]

I hear that, Paul. Time will tell then.

:)