Sal any update on kitchen knives?

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The Deacon
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Postby The Deacon » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:58 pm

sal wrote:Certainly not impossible on the plain KO5. What size did you have in mind on the Santoku style?

sal
thanks Sal. A 4.5" to 5" Santoku would be great. There must be a market for them, beyond just me, since other companies make them.
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sal
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Postby sal » Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:51 pm

Hey Paul,

Any of these other company's to which you can point me?

sal

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Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:23 pm

sal wrote:Right now we're working with Chinese makers to teach them to use CTS BD1. Carpenter has laid the foundation for having BD1 inventoried in China for our (& others) knives. Heat treatment is a tad "tricky" and we're not there yet.
Sal, CTS BD1 is essentially Carpenters version of 19C27, as this is a low carbide alloy there is no need for a high soak temperature and all you have to do is make sure the min temp/time variance in the soak doesn't produce grain growth (1065 C / 5 min hold to start) as there is almost no alloy for grain pinning. Ideally you would want an oil quench + sub-zero to allow for full martensite conversion and then temper at 350 F. The real risks are going to be time between quench and temper as that can produce softness + embrittlement, as can lack of equalization during soaking. Are you able to disclose the issues you are having?

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Postby tonydahose » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:36 pm

sal wrote:Hey Paul,

Any of these other company's to which you can point me?

sal
here is one Sal

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KU92-2C-Japanes ... 33792c3181

this one is a bit bigger than what Paul wants at 5.5"
ttp://www.chefscatalog.com/product/27581-kyoc ... t-set.aspx

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Wusthof-Cla ... 41684d42be
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sal
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Postby sal » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:52 pm

Hi Cliff,

the grain size is too large and the Rc too low. Carpenter picked up the ball and is doing microanalysis on their samples. I think Carpenter will be able to get it sorted. At least I'm assuming they will since they want to sell steel in volume.

thanx Tony. I'll look into that possibility as well.

I'm also open to any suggestions like Paul's. That's how we learn what you want.

sal

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Postby Domanfp » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:34 pm

I think a decent 6.5-8" chef would be great. The utility knives are generally a little light for chopping and the santoku doesn't have the point for fine work. A 10" chef would be more knife then most home cooks would need so something like the yin/yang size just with blade height.

Just wondering what handle material are you guys considering and full tang I assume?

I have a yin/yang and an old santoku. And my wife loves them. Sometimes I think she wants the new set more then I do!
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Postby tonydahose » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:54 pm

Well i would love a simple2 piece set that most people could get away with just having as their only kitchen knives. A nice 240 gyuto with a wide blade and a smaller petty. maybe a serrated knife for bread. That would be a great gift set for someone. carbon fiber would be cool too :)
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Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:13 pm

sal wrote:Hi Cliff,

the grain size is too large and the Rc too low.
That is a definite sign of over soaking and it could be just the range on the thermocouples that set the austenization temperature. If turning down the time/temperature at soak doesn't help, and the blades are being properly equalized before aus-temp, then I would ask Carpenter to ensure they are providing the steel properly normalized as blades will required a much finer aus-grain and primary carbide distribution than other tools. In particular if the carbide aggregate is too large (which is often done for ease of machining, i.e, full spheroidize for maximum softness) you will not have a snappy response to heat treatment as your alloy is too clumped together. That steel should be able to obtain 61-63 HRC with oil/cold are you aiming in that area?

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Postby tonydahose » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:37 pm

Cliff, no disrespect to you at all but I am glad there are people like you that know all of this info because it gives the rest of us nice shiny knives to play with. oh and they cut well too :p . Seriously i read your post a couple of times and i was picturing a scene from Star Trek where the klingons are talking to each other in their native language and i dont know what the heck they are saying.
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Postby bh49 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:11 am

The Deacon wrote:thanks Sal. A 4.5" to 5" Santoku would be great. There must be a market for them, beyond just me, since other companies make them.
Paul,
What do you need smaller Santoku for? Mine is 6.5" and I never felt that it is too big.
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Postby The Deacon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:42 am

sal wrote:Hey Paul,

Any of these other company's to which you can point me?

sal
Sure Sal. Not looking for the Granton edge, and they're all way too thick, but here are a few: Calaphon J.A. Henckels Rachel Ray/Furi Recall seeing a more "traditional Japanese" looking 120mm one too, with a handle like the KX05 Sashimi knife, but can't seem to find it.
bh49 wrote:Paul,
What do you need smaller Santoku for? Mine is 6.5" and I never felt that it is too big.
Don't really know, Roman. Just that there are times I wish my K05 had a wider and less pointed blade, so I figure it would come in handy.
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Postby ETisCool » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:46 am

I am incredibly excited for these knives at the suggested price point. A question i still haven't found to be answered is did we ever find out what the handles will be made out of? Is the idea of them being removable/replaceable still being tossed around? At the price it almost seems like it would just be cheaper to get a whole new knife.
Also with the absence of a "main chefs" knife from this line up makes me hope that maybe they are saving that for a sprint run in a "super steel". Ah one can dream cant he?

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Postby bh49 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:34 pm

The Deacon wrote: Don't really know, Roman. Just that there are times I wish my K05 had a wider and less pointed blade, so I figure it would come in handy.
I used to have 165 mm Santoku and really liked to use it to chop vegetables. I never felt that I need any smaller Santoku. That felt just right. But most of the time I use 8" Gyuto, love it and sometime wishing that I had 9" blade instead.
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Postby The Deacon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:20 pm

bh49 wrote:I used to have 165 mm Santoku and really liked to use it to chop vegetables. I never felt that I need any smaller Santoku. That felt just right. But most of the time I use 8" Gyuto, love it and sometime wishing that I had 9" blade instead.
Different strokes for different folks, Roman. Perhaps my living alone has something to do with it, but aside from slicing up a watermelon and carving a turkey or ham a couple times a year, my bigger knives mostly just collect dust. I have pretty much all the Spyderco sermollan handled Kitchen Sharps, plus the Sashimi Knife and the one I use most in the kitchen is my plain edge 4.5" K05 Utility Knife. Second most used is the K08 Santoku, but it's a distant second. I rarely need anything larger than the K05, and, if I had a couple more spares, would probably have one ground down an inch or so since there are times I'd prefer something shorter but find the K09 Paring Knife's handle too small for comfort. The more I think about the "whys" behind wanting a smaller Santoku, I come up with these. It would add some weight to the K05's blade, hopefully without adding thickness. It would have more "belly" than the K05, so it would be better for rocking cuts. It would allow more clearance for my knuckles when working on a cutting board than the K05.
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Postby RedRunner » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:48 pm

I'm pretty late to this thread and it sounds like the ball is in motion. I would lean towards the basics first. I've always heard there are only 3-4 knives a chef needs, unless you are in a specialty area. I lean towards the european style knives, so the 3 knives would be a chef's knife, a paring knife and a serrated bread knife. The chef's knife is the heavily used tool of the well trained chef, but a pairing knife is needed for detail work and the serrated bread knife doubles as a tomato knife. The standard, arguably, is Wusthof (classic, but some of the other modern lines are similar in build). Henkel and Sabateur (sp?) have fallen by the waste side with the change of ownership, production processes and design/build. I've learned on the Wusthof Classic, so I'm biased - it is a true classic style. Although I do feel the handle could potentially be a little more ergonomic using modern materials. But the knife scales have to be tough and long lasting (designed for a lifetime). It must be a full tang with good rivets - no loose scales. And bolster should be smooth and sufficient to hold the knife with proper form. No bolsters is a huge let down in the cheap knives. The knife needs to be one with the hand.

After those three knives, I'd be interested in a good sashimi blade, but that's a novelty for me. I have a Kramer sashimi blade that is quite amazing...wish I could afford his Chef knife...they cost thousands and it's just not worth it to me. I have an over abundance of Wusthof's and frankly they really do the job well. At the end of the day I tend to focus in only a few knives...the others were purchased because I thought I could do something special with the varying lengths, shapes, etc. Honestly allot is in how you use the knife and the Chef's knife is the worker - it does 90%+ of all my cutting needs. I can slice most product efficiently with my Chef's knife, even though I have three other slicers of different lengths. But I can't match the thin, smooth cut a great sashimi blade can produce...nor do I need that on most product.

The asian style knives are fine if that matches your cutting style. Traditionally the japanese knives were designed for softer foods though - blade thickness, cut on one side, and even the blade geometry come in to play. I don't consider them a great knife for breaking down a chicken or banging into a bone by accident. I suppose if heavy hitting was my style I'd lean to the Chinese style, focusing in on the cleaver and heavier blades. Overall the European style is just right for me, but that's how I was trained, so it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy syndrome.

That's more than 2 cents worth of opinion, but it's still just an opinion. I'll love to see what the final product is even if it's not for me. I'm sure it will be amazing.

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Postby springnr » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:44 pm

I'm with Deacon, give me a 4.5" petty and a 5.5" Santoku = 95% of my kitchen work is covered. Plain edge.

This Parer is handy too, but that's because you just can't have enough knives.

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Postby CharlesB » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:06 pm

sal wrote:Right now we're working with Chinese makers to teach them to use CTS BD1. Carpenter has laid the foundation for having BD1 inventoried in China for our (& others) knives. Heat treatment is a tad "tricky" and we're not there yet. We've been testing samples as they make them.

At this time we're considering a K04 in plain and serrated (6.5" utility) a KO5 in serrated (4.5" utility), a shape similar to the Santoku (KO8), and a paring knife (KO9).

Interesting thought on the hi-line variations.

sal
Project feedback (one cooking hobbyist's perspective):

1) As some others have voiced in this thread, I'd definitely consider a full-sized (8 inches or greater) and plain-edged chef's knife (or equivalent Japanese model) in the CTS BD1. Historically, I find that the larger the knife, the safer and more productive my kitchen experience.

2) Re-emphasizing what "rlw1979777" suggested in this thread, doing sprint runs with upgraded or modified-design product elements might help mirror some of the continued interest found with current spyderco folding blade models. I am not adverse to owning multiple kitchen knives of the same size so that multiple people can do like-tasks for group meals or perhaps one blade is particularly suited to a task (full flat grind v. granton-edged v. convex grind). If I had a block filled exclusively with a variety of chef's knives, I'd be ecstatic.

3) While a "block package" might be nice for the gift-giving or discount-purchase crowd, I'd dearly like these knives to be also offered up individually to meet the needs of chefs (self-serving) who just want one or two models.

I hope that you and your partners have figured out the heat treatment challenges from this past Summer. And a sincere thank you for engaging with your customers.

-- charles


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