Not much "meat" over-lap on the lock back?

[Pneumothorax]

Thanx Joe.

It's interesting to note that someone posts a picture of a lock that appears to be unsafe. No indication if that is typical. Of all of the pictures that have been posted on our locks, someone selected that one that could be perceived as questionable and presents it as typical. Then that picture is circulated in all the forums.

We have a pretty good reputation for safe, reliable locks. We certainly try hard to make them so. I'm probably just being paranoid, but sometimes it seems like there are folks out there that go out of their way to try to make Spyderco look bad. :confused:

sal

I didnt chime in on this because a) I trust Spyderco design engineering - it aint my job to question why and how - Im not that educated and b) I am not a hard user in any way and frankly, it doesnt matter to me How strong I think the lock is, Im still not going to try and over do it and use a folder in place in a fixed blade. This started out as an interesting thread, but went in the wrong direction. And no, Im not trying to suck up to Sal.

[Fred Sanford]

Sal, I hope you don't think that I posted that picture as "typical". I certainly do not think that. I have opened up plenty of your knives to know that it's not typical. Especially after the first picture I posted was of one of my Delica 4's.

I sure didn't mean to cause this much trouble. Sorry about that.

[vic]

Lighten up vic.

i don't mind a laugh, it's not funny though and it just seems to be used as a way to discredit the issues raised, in this case someones issue with their spyderco lockback

[dialex]

Odd as it may seem, the effort when you push the blade on the spine doesn't tend to lift the lock, but rather to drag it forwards (see the picture below).
So it's not necessarily about how deep the tooth of the lock engages but also about the correct angles between the lock and its correspondent "hook" in the blade.
But I fully agree that making the tooth higher may be a quick solution that will save both your time and the number of testing prototypes... :rolleyes:

[angusW]

I think the people who feel the lock might fail in the pic of post 21 with the Endura 4 or any lockback should look how it might function, not while stationary like in the pic but with the blade trying to move down. It looks to me as there is downward pressure on the blade then the lockup is going to increase, not decrease. You don't need a lot of meat for steel to catch and hold and as more pressure is put on the back of a lockback that overlap is going to catch with greater force.
=================

i don't mind a laugh, it's not funny though and it just seems to be used as a way to discredit the issues raised, in this case someones issue with their spyderco lockback

PJ sandwiches are used on this forum not to discredit an issue but to turn an ugly conversation into a more civilized one. More than one heated discussion has been put out with a PJ sandwich whether Spyderco is being bashed or not.

[vic]

PJ sandwiches are used on this forum not to discredit an issue but to turn an ugly conversation into a more civilized one. More than one heated discussion has been put out with a PJ sandwich whether Spyderco is being bashed or not.

that's kind of my point, honest constructive criticism is not bashing

[Ankerson]

Thanx Joe.

It's interesting to note that someone posts a picture of a lock that appears to be unsafe. No indication if that is typical. Of all of the pictures that have been posted on our locks, someone selected that one that could be perceived as questionable and presents it as typical. Then that picture is circulated in all the forums.

We have a pretty good reputation for safe, reliable locks. We certainly try hard to make them so. I'm probably just being paranoid, but sometimes it seems like there are folks out there that go out of their way to try to make Spyderco look bad. :confused:

sal

Hi Sal,

It's like with anything negative on the net, there will be those who will spread it all over the place, then that one negative thing will be the norm before they are done posting that one picture. Then the dog piling happens ect..

It happens a lot....


Jim

[Wolverine666]

But I DO like my (grape) jelly refrigerated. I'm a bit of an enigma.

[Bolster]

Wait: So Sal is saying that the picture of the Endura lock is an unusual sample. OK, I understand that, it happens. But if it's an unusual example that makes Spyderco look bad, then why is everyone doing backflips to explain it away, as if the minimal engagement is something good?

Do you see the contradiction here? This forum says, "Well there are advantages to shallow engagement, and the force is forward not down," all of which may be true, and Sal comes along and says, "That's a not-normal lock, and it's making us look bad." Seems to me Sal is saying that the Endura lock pictured is (1) not good and (2) not normal.

Am I wrong? Did I miss something?

[vic]

Do you see the contradiction here?

i do, people aren't being objective

[Bolster]

I would also like to point out that Sal, to his credit, is not using the Peanut Butter defense. He's on topic.

[Blerv]

The overlap pictured not being as "deep" doesnt necessarily guarantee weakness. Factors as pictured by Donut, width, and temper of the steel are huge as well.

Fact is a lock is only proven weak (or perhaps "weaker") once broken and compared to a spectrum of competitors. These should be in the same category as most Tri-Ad locks are heftier in general for that infamous "EDC" role.

Generally I can see a deeper seating lock as less easy to unlock. If you can maintain strength without having to depress the lockbar half an inch+ that is preferable to me.

Heck, I cant break a frn Ladybug :p . I think the Delica/Endura/Native is quite sturdy per its classification.

Here is some optimism for ya guys! With the rare chance any lock fail, let alone a quality one from a company like Spyderco, you're FAR more likely to be in a life-altering vehicle crash :) . Better test those seatbelts for proper lockup.

[Bolster]

OK, I appreciate the defense of the pictured lock, but then why does Sal identify it as: "a lock that appears to be unsafe.... one that could be perceived as questionable"?

Sal isn't telling us that the lock looks good or is good. He's not doing the Jedi hand wave: "You are not interested in this picture." He seems to be saying that the pictured lock is not usual/typical/normal, and that if we had access to other photos of other locks, we'd know it isn't typical.

[Blerv]

OK, I appreciate the defense of the pictured lock, but then why does Sal identify it as: "a lock that appears to be unsafe.... one that could be perceived as questionable"?

Sal isn't telling us that the lock looks good or is good. He's not doing the Jedi hand wave: "You are not interested in this picture." He seems to be saying that the pictured lock is not usual/typical/normal, and that if we had access to other photos of other locks, we'd know it isn't typical.

The political answer: That has to be determined by a trained Spyderco W&R tech.

I'm sure not going to take my knives apart to check. I might screw up the lockup. That and cutting with the edge instead of the spine guarantees safe fingers :) .

[DCDesigns]

i get that but i've seen a video of a ffg endura where the guy was able to get the lock to fail simply by applying a little bit of negative pressure to the blade

Was it a Neptuneknives vid? IF so, you can completely discredit anything he has to say. The knives he tests to fail have most likely been made to fail previously, so they would be weakened anyway.

[vic]

Was it a Neptuneknives vid? IF so, you can completely discredit anything he has to say. The knives he tests to fail have most likely been made to fail previously, so they would be weakened anyway.

i honestly can't remember, it wasn't a guy whose videos i usually watch and it was a while ago, maybe i could find it, if i do i'll come back

[araneae]

The thing I don't understand is that if the lock is doing its job, who cares what it looks like. David never said there was any issue. Sal never stated that the lock was unsafe. If it works, it works. None of us are qualified to make safety and engineering evaluations off of photos.

I'm currently digging cherry jam.

[SolidState]

But if it's an unusual example that makes Spyderco look bad, then why is everyone doing backflips to explain it away, as if the minimal engagement is something good?

Do you see the contradiction here? This forum says, "Well there are advantages to shallow engagement, and the force is forward not down," all of which may be true, and Sal comes along and says, "That's a not-normal lock, and it's making us look bad." Seems to me Sal is saying that the Endura lock pictured is (1) not good and (2) not normal.

Am I wrong? Did I miss something?

Well, since you've pressed the issue: perhaps you missed the physics of torque, and the wonders of the last fifty years of materials science.

While the second endura pictured has an exaggeratedly small overlap which IS less than optimal, the first lock pictured has more than enough overlap to be just as viable as the triad's overlap, if not more due to the lever arm's effect on torque at the weak point (the inside corner or the lock bar).

The complete misconceptions about basic physics and material science present in this thread are indicative of an inability to utilize simple torque equations to actually calculate the forces necessary to cause failure in 420J2 of that thickness with that much overlap. If engagement happens at the tip of the lever arm, a simple investigation of Torque would tell you that having a longer lever isn't going to supply less force.

There is far more at play than meets the eye. Making all judgment upon what the eye sees is what makes magic fun, even though you're simply being tricked because of trusting simple observational human intuition over actual investigation.

I say we find a way to test the minimally-overlapping endura in question. Lets do some science here guys! We can speculate all day, but why not test? I'd like to see what that little overlap can do! I bet it's surprising.

[angusW]

OK, I appreciate the defense of the pictured lock, but then why does Sal identify it as: "a lock that appears to be unsafe.... one that could be perceived as questionable"?

Sal isn't telling us that the lock looks good or is good. He's not doing the Jedi hand wave: "You are not interested in this picture." He seems to be saying that the pictured lock is not usual/typical/normal, and that if we had access to other photos of other locks, we'd know it isn't typical.

I think for Sal to answer your question whether the pic of the Endura in post 21 is unsafe or not, he would have to have that knife in his shop where it can be properly tested. He's not saying the lock is bad or good. He's also not saying that particular backlock on that particular knife is unusual but some people are perceiving it as unusual and then saying Spyderco's backlocks are no good.

[angusW]

that's kind of my point, honest constructive criticism is not bashing

You're missing the point my friend. The idea of the PJ is to cool off some hot heads :)