Not much "meat" over-lap on the lock back?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
Bolster
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: CalyFRNia

Postby Bolster » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:21 pm

SolidState wrote:Well, since you've pressed the issue: perhaps you missed the physics of torque, and the wonders of the last fifty years of materials science.
OK, that was an erudite way of calling me stupid, you get points for that, but I was not asking about the physics of the lock when I asked "Am I missing something?" My question was whether I had misunderstood Sal's response, and wasn't it in conflict with many forum responses? Seemed to me Sal was indicating the Endura lock was an outlier, not that it was normal--whereas several forum responses indicated that it was probably normal and functional.

Also I'm confused about this:
SolidState wrote:While the second endura pictured has an exaggeratedly small overlap which IS less than optimal....The complete misconceptions about basic physics and material science present in this thread are indicative of an inability to utilize simple torque equations to actually calculate the forces necessary to cause failure in 420J2 of that thickness with that much overlap.
I don't mean to be impertinent, but aren't you coming to the same conclusion that many of us are (and possibly Sal, depending on how you interpret his comments) that the pictured endura's lockup is less than optimal, even though you have superior abilities to comprehend physics and material sciences and utilize torque equations and calculate forces necessary?
Congratulations—your brainwashing is complete!
Perform ongoing maintenance by daily consumption of mainstream media.

User avatar
Fred Sanford
Member
Posts: 5690
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:41 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Spot on!

Postby Fred Sanford » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:26 pm

SolidState wrote:Well, since you've pressed the issue: perhaps you missed the physics of torque, and the wonders of the last fifty years of materials science.

While the second endura pictured has an exaggeratedly small overlap which IS less than optimal, the first lock pictured has more than enough overlap to be just as viable as the triad's overlap, if not more due to the lever arm's effect on torque at the weak point (the inside corner or the lock bar).

The complete misconceptions about basic physics and material science present in this thread are indicative of an inability to utilize simple torque equations to actually calculate the forces necessary to cause failure in 420J2 of that thickness with that much overlap. If engagement happens at the tip of the lever arm, a simple investigation of Torque would tell you that having a longer lever isn't going to supply less force.

There is far more at play than meets the eye. Making all judgment upon what the eye sees is what makes magic fun, even though you're simply being tricked because of trusting simple observational human intuition over actual investigation.

I say we find a way to test the minimally-overlapping endura in question. Lets do some science here guys! We can speculate all day, but why not test? I'd like to see what that little overlap can do! I bet it's surprising.
Excellent post and I agree 100%. I'm not that great with math at all but I did pretty good in physics. I loved physics, in fact.

I totally agree in that at least I have no idea if having little over-lap or tons is just as good. This is the entire reason I posted this thread in the first place and it has gotten way off topic. Thanks for bringing it back bro!

The Delica 4 that I posted a pic of is my knife and I still have and use it. Great knife. I am not the slightest bit worried about the lockup of it. The Endura that I posted the pic of is also mine and I still have and use it. It is a G10 Endura so I'm not going to give it up for "testing" but I would love to see how it would fare with such little over-lap. I should point out that I don't have a problem with the lockup on the Endura. It was made in 2008 and I have used it for at least a year off and on. I never was concerned until I took it apart to clean it. Even then I wasn't too concerned I was just surprised. Since I didn't know what kind of over-lap is needed, I asked. :)
“I'm callin' you ugly. I could stick yo face in some dough and make some gorilla cookies.” - Fred Sanford

User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11695
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

Postby Blerv » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:37 pm

I think everyone needs to step a bit. Even the sarcasm thus far has seemed (I could be wrong) more tongue and cheek than malicious.

I think David posed a great question and an honest one. Comments have been earnest and some loaded with defense mechanisms. We know where some of these threads go if not deflated quickly!

Always nice to hear from Sal :) . While some threads are mean-spirited this one seems done out of concern.

As they say about the rest, "haters gonna hate" ( :p ). Sadly with all fingers attached all they got is hate and interwebz logic.
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

User avatar
SolidState
Member
Posts: 1749
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:37 pm
Location: Oregon

Postby SolidState » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:41 pm

Bolster wrote:OK, that was an erudite way of calling me stupid, you get points for that, but I was not asking about the physics of the lock when I asked "Am I missing something?" My question was whether I had misunderstood Sal's response, and wasn't it in conflict with many forum responses? Seemed to me Sal was indicating the Endura lock was an outlier.


I'm not calling you stupid at all, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. Your post was misconstrued as calling basic physics the equivalent of "handwavey bs magic," and I found that confusing and off putting. It also seemed like you were accusing me of being some sort of a bias-blinded fanboy for trying to discuss the physics of lock engagement and the pertinent dimensions for engagement. This may be a misunderstanding on my part. I apologize for taking offense and responding accordingly.
Bolster wrote: I don't mean to be impertinent, but aren't you coming to the same conclusion that many of us are (and possibly Sal, depending on how you interpret his comments) that the endura's lockup is less than optimal, even though you have superior abilities to comprehend physics and material sciences and calculate forces necessary?
Well, it does appear less than optimal, and that means it is less than optimal because people will get a hold of the picture and trash it all over the internet without actually testing anything about it.

I also continue to address that appearances can be deceiving, and that we really should test the knife to see how well something that appears that sub-optimal actually performs before casting judgment.
"Nothing is so fatal to the progress of the human mind as to suppose that our views of science are ultimate; that there are no mysteries in nature; that our triumphs are complete, and that there are no new worlds to conquer."
Sir Humphry Davy

User avatar
Bolster
Member
Posts: 1583
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:27 pm
Location: CalyFRNia

Postby Bolster » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:46 pm

SolidState wrote:Your post was misconstrued as calling basic physics the equivalent of "handwavey bs magic," and I found that confusing and off putting. It also seemed like you were accusing me of being some sort of a bias-blinded fanboy for trying to discuss the physics of lock engagement and the pertinent dimensions for engagement. This may be a misunderstanding on my part. I apologize for taking offense and responding accordingly.
My fault, then. I didn't intend to call basic physics the equivalent of a Jedi handwave; I meant to point out that Sal did not dismiss the photo with a handwave that there was "nothing wrong here." He could have said the photo was perfectly normal but he indicated it was abnormal. Apologies to Mr. Newton and all subsequent physicists. And I do encourage you to discuss the physics of lock engagement and dimensions. It's an interesting subject. Please continue. And I also agree that a test would be very informative.
Congratulations—your brainwashing is complete!
Perform ongoing maintenance by daily consumption of mainstream media.

salimoneus
Member
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby salimoneus » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:06 pm

I think the simple bottom line is that both the Endura and Delica are light duty knives. I would not feel confident using either in a tactical or self defense situation, and that's okay as they were not designed for that purpose.

The fact is that both knives have a long standing history of being very good performers with a very low failure rate. Sure some chub on Youtube can show his Endura failing after a baton session or a few overstrikes or spine whacks, but that's just not a recommended use for these knives. It's interesting to see people push products to their limits, but 99% of everyone else is probably not going to even approach that level of abuse in the knife's lifetime.

If there is a fitment issue with the knife pictured, it's very likely an uncommon occurrence, otherwise we would be hearing about a lot more failures would we not?

Oh, and I am really missing Trader Joe's PB, they seriously need to open a **** store in the Denver area. Only three things I miss about living in CA: a plethora of hot asian chicks, the ocean, and Trader Joe's.

vic
Member
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:21 am
Location: United Kingdom

Postby vic » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:52 am

angusW wrote:You're missing the point my friend. The idea of the PJ is to cool off some hot heads :)
funny, because i only ever see it when someone has a problem with their spyderco and fanboys refuse any discussion suggesting that maybe something by spyderco isn't actually 100% perfect and superior to everything else

it's nice that spyderco makes good knives and that people prefer them but it just gets stupid with a lot of guys on here blindly defending stuff

and how can it cool off already pissed off people? it's really annoying man, just makes things worse, like this thread could be half the length it is if people just discussed the topic and if someone has a problem with their knife do they really want their problem to be ignored and have the piss ripped out of them with a load of infantile deflection? no they don't

User avatar
The Deacon
Member
Posts: 25375
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Upstate SC, USA
Contact:

Postby The Deacon » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:54 am

Bolster wrote:OK, that was an erudite way of calling me stupid, you get points for that, but I was not asking about the physics of the lock when I asked "Am I missing something?" My question was whether I had misunderstood Sal's response, and wasn't it in conflict with many forum responses? Seemed to me Sal was indicating the Endura lock was an outlier, not that it was normal--whereas several forum responses indicated that it was probably normal and functional.

Also I'm confused about this:



I don't mean to be impertinent, but aren't you coming to the same conclusion that many of us are (and possibly Sal, depending on how you interpret his comments) that the pictured endura's lockup is less than optimal, even though you have superior abilities to comprehend physics and material sciences and utilize torque equations and calculate forces necessary?
Perhaps. And then again perhaps Sal was not referring directly or specifically to the photos in this thread but rather to the more general situation on the internet where a single anomalous and often staged photograph, video, or trivial written complaint can, and often does, get misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. The Manix 2 "lock weakness" BS is a prime example of that.

There's quite a difference between "less than optimal" and "dangerously deficient". My truck has about 5000 miles on it so it's safe to say the tires are less than optimal. However, they'd still pass even the most stringent state inspection with flying colors, so they're a far cry from being dangerously deficient.

The fact that a lock "appears to be unsafe" or "could be perceived as questionable" in a photograph does not equate to that appearance or perception being accurate.

What I know for certain is that I've been using Spyderco midlock knives, including some which I purchased used and some which I've had modified, for nearly ten years now and have never had one fail and that I'd have no qualms about using David's Endura, or a Stretch with identical engagement.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!

User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11695
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

Postby Blerv » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:25 am

salimoneus wrote:I think the simple bottom line is that both the Endura and Delica are light duty knives. I would not feel confident using either in a tactical or self defense situation, and that's okay as they were not designed for that purpose.
False...

They dont fall within Spyderco's light duty bracket nor are treated that way by the masses. They arent a tactical knife yet the staple pick for many martial artists hence the trainer being available.

I think people need to stop speculating about product strength due to perceieved dangers. Its ok to not be qualified for something in life.
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

akaAK
Member
Posts: 831
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:41 pm
Location: TO Canada

Postby akaAK » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:43 am

I had a problem with a Spyderco lock once. It was not a lock design problem. Funny thing was, I sent it in to Spyderco and they replaced the knife. Didn't have to post anything or upset people on this forum. Still trust Spyderco locks more than anyone else's (personal opinion).

I separate my PB and J. Use three pieces of wonder bread with one in the middle.

salimoneus
Member
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:52 pm
Location: Colorado

Postby salimoneus » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:21 am

Blerv wrote:False...

They dont fall within Spyderco's light duty bracket nor are treated that way by the masses. They arent a tactical knife yet the staple pick for many martial artists hence the trainer being available.

I think people need to stop speculating about product strength due to perceieved dangers. Its ok to not be qualified for something in life.
I consider EDC knives to be light duty knives. If it's not rated for heavy use then in my mind it's light duty. I guess the definition of light duty varies from person to person. Imagine that.

User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11695
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

Postby Blerv » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:59 am

salimoneus wrote:I consider EDC knives to be light duty knives. If it's not rated for heavy use then in my mind it's light duty. I guess the definition of light duty varies from person to person. Imagine that.
No attack intended. We all have different perceptions and luckily Spyderco knives are engineered to exceed most of them.

The Ladybug is designated as a "light duty" knife by Spyderco; 25-50 lbs/inch of lock strength. I still would trust my fingers to it over some other brands' "tactical" knives.
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

User avatar
Fred Sanford
Member
Posts: 5690
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:41 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Postby Fred Sanford » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:43 am

vic wrote:funny, because i only ever see it when someone has a problem with their spyderco and fanboys refuse any discussion suggesting that maybe something by spyderco isn't actually 100% perfect and superior to everything else

it's nice that spyderco makes good knives and that people prefer them but it just gets stupid with a lot of guys on here blindly defending stuff

and how can it cool off already pissed off people? it's really annoying man, just makes things worse, like this thread could be half the length it is if people just discussed the topic and if someone has a problem with their knife do they really want their problem to be ignored and have the piss ripped out of them with a load of infantile deflection? no they don't
Here's the problem with your logic.

I started this thread and it wasn't because I had a problem, I simply had a question. I'm not a fanboy as I've put up my fair share of threads with problem Spyderco knives that I've had.

I started the PBJ thing years back because people would come into a thread and just crap all over it and ruin it for folks like me who are legitimately searching for answers. Nobody is being a fanboy here, people just came into this thread and started saying how bad the lock was and how scary it was and that didn't even add to the thread. They just started piling crap onto crap.

Since I'm the one that started the thread and I never had a problem with my lock I would say that anyone that is upset because they need their question answered should maybe start their own thread instead of hi-jacking mine. I realize that this is a forum and each thread is a discussion but there are a handful of people that have ruined this thread. That is what is infantile, and not the PBJ thing.

Add constructively to a thread. You're adding to this thread having unneeded posts as well.

So instead of this thread being helpful it has turned into a stupid fight and I am about to delete it and hope that Spyderco leaves it deleted.

Way to help ruin a good thread.
“I'm callin' you ugly. I could stick yo face in some dough and make some gorilla cookies.” - Fred Sanford

User avatar
Waco
Member
Posts: 561
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:48 pm

Postby Waco » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:00 am

jabba359 wrote:That thought had also crossed my mind as well, but then I remember hearing someone say that Spyderco can engineer any lock to be as strong as they want. There's just a tradeoff. As noted above, the deeper the lockbar sits into the notch, the more difficult it is to disengage.

It's a balancing act, where you try to maximize strength while minimizing inconvenience. I'm sure that Spyderco has tested all sorts of lock engagement depths and after considering strength vs practicality, found a great compromise where the lock is smooth and easy to use, but still very strong. Keep in mind that the notch just keeps the knife from closing and that it has nothing to do with hard cutting tasks (unless you are trying to cut with the spine of the knife, in which case, you have much more substantial problems than a knife can fix ;) ).

For me, as long as the lock holds the knife open and can keeps it open if I accidentally bump the spine against something, then the lock is doing its job. If I know that there are going to be severe forces applied to the spine, then I know that the job calls for a fixed blade. I've yet to encounter an EDC situation where my folder wasn't more than sufficient for whatever random task I needed it for, but like you noted, that interface is still very small looking, but it doesn't worry me in the least. I trust Spyderco did their homework.
Yeah, lock blades should be treated like non-locking blades. It's a safety mechanism and if you are testing the strength of it, you are misusing the knife.

Perry
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:03 pm
Location: Valleys to my East / Plains to my West

Postby Perry » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:06 am

Deletion? Great idea, put this thread out of it's misery.


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], blades&wrenches, jacala, Patko, Skidoosh, steelcity16, TkoK83Spy and 38 guests