MT12P Cru-Wear Mule Team Recall - Answers

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Ankerson
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Postby Ankerson » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:55 am

Guyon wrote:No, nozh2002, you were banned from Bladeforums because you don't have the slightest clue as to constructive social behavior.

On another note, thanks Sal, for shooting straight. Spyderco products will always have a place in my pocket.
He really banned himself by getting enough infractions that he was banned.

They gave him a lot of chances over the years too though.

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Postby jossta » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:57 am

jabba359 wrote:Best news I've read in a long time!
Ditto. Leaves more for the rest of us.

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Postby JLS » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:57 am

I just caught up with this thread...and...wow.

Anyone who's ever been involved of the manufacture of anything realizes that unfortunate things happen from time to time. As Sal stated, you have a choice when something unplanned happens.

Mistakes happen all the time. Manufacturing engineering is creating consistency in the process. Guess what? We don't learn or move forward without mistakes. I guarantee that the Spyderco team will be learning from this mistake. Being involved in manufacturing myself, I've been watching Spyderco over the past 15+ years. I see many of the little changes in a different light than others. They have been striving hard to make a better product. They have been working hard to improve their manufacturing methods and tool changes and have had much success. I've never been to the Spyderco plant, so how can I know this? They make sprint runs on a consistent basis. They wouldn't do that if they were losing money every time. They're not losing money because they've been investing in their manufacturing process. And we get a better product for less money because of their efforts. You don't need a background in manufacturing to appreciate that.

What one person in this discussion fails to realize in this case is that everyone is constantly manufacturing their reputation. Once again, when something bad happens...you have a choice.

Sal, I really appreciate the Mule Team project. Because of the change in material every run, I actually do understand the PITA that this is for you. Small, consistent manufacturing runs are very difficult to do well. I have to believe that this is a matter of passion for you and the rest of the team at Spyderco, because it doesn't make much sense otherwise! Thanks for being honest with us on this particular run. It's a real shame that it's turned out this way, but I look forward to a successful conclusion to this one and to many Mules in the future.
42 Spyderco fixed blades and counting...

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Postby dsmegst » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:27 am

99.9 percent of us truly appreciate the Mule project and the rare opportunity it gives us to try new steels that would otherwise be impossible to obtain or become too costly. Now that Mr.N has decided to vote himself off the island, we can get back to the business at hand. We're looking forward to the re-release of MT-12 and hope that things go well to make it happen.

Sal, thank you very much for your patience and passion. Another person could well have shelved the whole project and said, "F' it."
Dan (dsmegst)

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Ankerson
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Postby Ankerson » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:49 am

The Mule Team Project is important for the development of steels that could be used in future models.

It also gives the steel junkies a great opportunity to use more different steels than ever before on an affordable level.

Sal has really put himself out there with the Mule Team project and it has done a lot of very positive things for the knife industry as a whole.

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JNewell
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Postby JNewell » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:48 am

The Soviets knew how to deal with these "quality control" problems...and I am not referring to Spyderco Mules... :rolleyes: :o :eek:

The Mastiff wrote:Opinion only

When a person continually goes out of the way to cause problems and contributes nothing positive they should go.

I always believe in giving warnings and doing it fairly. Treating people equally isn't too much to ask and takes no more time. When people are motivated solely to cause disruption and get paybacks for whatever real or imagined insults nothing further can be gained by keeping them around.

There is it seems, always someone entering in the middle of the show that sees what appears to be a person being ganged up on ( some arguments can go on for literally months ) , not knowing what or how it began but they know it goes against their sense of fair play. This pulling of others into arguments causes snowball effects all the while the person pulling the strings is sitting back laughing.

It has happened too often with this individual. If he stays away, good. If not, he needs to go one way or another even if it means the mods taking actions they don't like doing.

It doesn't take long to ruin a good thing.

Joe

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Postby Bruceter » Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:39 pm

sal wrote:....Sometimes he goes overboard. :rolleyes:

sal
Only on days that end in a "Y" :p


Bruceter

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Postby DCDesigns » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:31 pm

Nothing good comes from being nice to trolls. Nozh has nothing productive to say, and his "knowledge" is nothing but one self assuring fallacy after another.

I really hope he doesn't come back, his stilted rambling is like nails on a chalkboard.

nozh2002
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Postby nozh2002 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:47 pm

Sal,

Initially Mule project was very promising - like testing ground for new steels. But in real life among all Mules only CPM S35VN (#6), Cobalt Special (#9), CTS-BD1 (#10) are actually new steels introduced by Mule project. Somehow two Mules happen to be made out of steel not interesting to anyone at least from performance perspective some Chinese steel and Damascus.

Steel which were announced, which were expected for years never made it - like CTS 20P. All requests to do one or other steel was ignored - like Hitach YXR7 etc... And in addition 2 Miles (16%) had quality problems because of poor heat treatment and absence of quality control - ZDP189 and Cru-wear.

From three new steels introduced by Mule only one was good in terms of performance - Cobalt Special and it did not make it into production... Now it was only me who did testing this knives, a lot of noise was made by fan boys but I see no any test results from somebody else. Seems like they only good to make noise.

Same very Spyderco released same time at least two new high performance steels CTS XHP and CTS BD30P - both were not present as Mule ever. So Spyderco does not really consider this project as testing playground, but rather small side project - more like marketing action to promote idea about innovative nature of Spyderco and care about steel junkies (which I was fulled with initially too).

Result - only Cobalt Special and it is not made it way to the market.

Now let other do kiss up for you, I am finished.

P.S. Ha! It just hit me now - Spyderco recall Mule 12 for poor performance. This performance statistically same as CPM S30V performance. So CPM S30V is "Golden Standard", but if other steel cuts like it - should be recalled right away whole bunch...

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Postby DCDesigns » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:29 pm

nozh2002 wrote: P.S. Ha! It just hit me now - Spyderco recall Mule 12 for poor performance. This performance statistically same as CPM S30V performance. So CPM S30V is "Golden Standard", but if other steel cuts like it - should be recalled right away whole bunch...


Ummmm..... What?

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Freediver
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Postby Freediver » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:29 pm

Hey Nozh,

Everyone knows that your reviews and "tests" are worthless and you are impossible to reason with. Please leave for good. Thanks. Bye.

-Freediver

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Forum culture and behavior

Postby PocketZen » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:41 pm

sal wrote:Nozh,

Mule Teams are an anolmoly to regular production. We try to squeeze them in. No two are the same and each run is an entirely new project. It is a real PITA to do. It does not mean that we have no quality control. You are being irrational. We have two options; We can deal with the issue, which we are doing our best to handle or we can dump the project and not have to put up with your sh*t.

sal
Hello Everyone,
I post only occasionally and have been away for a while. However I am a frequent reader of the forum. I belong to at least two other forums but really enjoy the culture of this one. I often read it on my phone when I need a break from my job where I deal with very unhealthy people. Here people are given a model of behavior and asked to generate respectful, supportive, and meaningful interactions. Further, Sal has modeled accountability, and a willingness to accept criticism. This for me makes it my favorite forum.
From when I first joined the :spyder: forum I would become confused by how the discussions were derailed by Nozh's posts, how he attacks and devalues others. I remember noticing how each persons posts were picked apart and quoted in retorts that highlighted how others were wrong, illogical, etc.
I highlight this now as see Sal being criticized and attacked for admitting and taking accountability for the errors of his company. To me, such criticism is pointless. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but what I perceive is someone highlighting how an error was made and chastising them for doing so. Spyderco has apologized and taken steps to correct the problem. I do not feel that anything productive is being generated by Nozh's constant criticisms.
Please administrators consider setting a boundary for all of us who do not have the power to do so. Please preserve this forum as a place of productive discussion were we can ask why, gain new knowledge, and share our views without attacking.

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Postby DCDesigns » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:54 pm

nozh2002 wrote: Steel which were announced, which were expected for years never made it - like CTS 20P. All requests to do one or other steel was ignored - like Hitach YXR7 etc... And in addition 2 Miles (16%) had quality problems because of poor heat treatment and absence of quality control - ZDP189 and Cru-wear.

Same very Spyderco released same time at least two new high performance steels CTS XHP and CTS BD30P - both were not present as Mule ever. So Spyderco does not really consider this project as testing playground, but rather small side project - more like marketing action to promote idea about innovative nature of Spyderco and care about steel junkies (which I was fulled with initially too).
Spyderco never promised to test all of their steels in mule runs first, your assumption that they would is absurd. And yes, some steels have not had mules made from them, YET. There are THOUSANDS of different types of steels! just because steels that were requested havent been made into mules yet does not mean the Mule team project is off base, only so many can be made at once. Spyderco has offered a great selection of steels so far, and im sure they will continue to do so. Your thought process is truly unbelievable. Have you been checked out?
and really,
The Mule Team project a marketing ploy? HAHAHAH what!?!?! is he serious? When have you EVER heard ANYTHING about it ANYWHERE!!!

Personally, I consider the mule team project a divine gift from the knife-gods, plucked from my very own dreams :) .

Keep em comin Sal! .

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Postby FarmerSteve » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:58 pm

dcdesigns wrote:spyderco never promised to test all of their steels in mule runs first, your assumption that they would is absurd. And yes, some steels have not had mules made from them, yet. There are thousands of different types of steels! Just because steels that were requested havent been made into mules yet does not mean the mule team project is off base, only so many can be made at once. Spyderco has offered a great selection of steels so far, and im sure they will continue to do so. Your thought process is truly unbelievable. Have you been checked out?
And really,
the mule team project a marketing ploy? Hahahah what!?!?! Is he serious? When have you ever heard anything about it anywhere!!!

Personally, i consider the mule team project a divine gift from the knife-gods, plucked from my very own dreams :) .

Keep em comin sal! .
+1

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Postby FarmerSteve » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:02 am

pocketzen wrote:hello everyone,
i post only occasionally and have been away for a while. However i am a frequent reader of the forum. I belong to at least two other forums but really enjoy the culture of this one. I often read it on my phone when i need a break from my job where i deal with very unhealthy people. Here people are given a model of behavior and asked to generate respectful, supportive, and meaningful interactions. Further, sal has modeled accountability, and a willingness to accept criticism. This for me makes it my favorite forum.
From when i first joined the :spyder: Forum i would become confused by how the discussions were derailed by nozh's posts, how he attacks and devalues others. I remember noticing how each persons posts were picked apart and quoted in retorts that highlighted how others were wrong, illogical, etc.
I highlight this now as see sal being criticized and attacked for admitting and taking accountability for the errors of his company. To me, such criticism is pointless. Perhaps i am misunderstanding, but what i perceive is someone highlighting how an error was made and chastising them for doing so. Spyderco has apologized and taken steps to correct the problem. I do not feel that anything productive is being generated by nozh's constant criticisms.
Please administrators consider setting a boundary for all of us who do not have the power to do so. Please preserve this forum as a place of productive discussion were we can ask why, gain new knowledge, and share our views without attacking.
+1

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DCDesigns
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Postby DCDesigns » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:17 am

Pocket Zen, I do not believe anyone has said it better so far. You get a big +1 from me.

Sal and company, I know you are incredibly nice people, your tolerance for Nozh deserves a medal. There has to be a limit to what you will tolerate, criticism is good, out right abuse of forum policies and trolling isnt. This is a sticky thread: designed to give answers to people and clarify the recall.

All was fine until Nozh showed up. Now it is just another derailed argument thread that no longer really serves its purpose. I feel it shines a bad light on the forum, and there it is, a sticky thread, for all to see.

I believe you can all see he will not be reasoned with, and his intention is to cause problems. Wouldn't it be better for everyone if SOMETHING was done?

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Postby The Mastiff » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:09 am

Like a child that wants everyone to be in trouble and have a lousy time if he gets himself in trouble. He would be the kid who wants the teacher to take the ball away from everybody if he can't play despite knowing he broke the rules.

Just an adult version of that same kid that still hasn't fit in to society and doesn't really want to because that would mean he has to look back on life and learn from it. How does one come to terms with admitting to themselves that all those times he failed to gain respect and was laughed at, he was actually wrong and deserving of the hard lessons we are supposed to learn from and move on.

We are talking about a person who has gotten used to getting no respect, and has contrived various reasons and excuses even to himself.

I kind of feel sorry for this childlike math savant destined to never get what he desires but at the same time I don't want to see him go about business as usual where I come to relax and get away from trolls while talking hobbies and interests amongst people I like and trust.

I guess we leave it in the mods hands. :)


Nozh says:
Result - only Cobalt Special and it is not made it way to the market.
Falkniven has brought it to market about a year ago. Not in anything I could afford though. Lucky we have Spyderco's mule team for this.
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800


"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"

nozh2002
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Postby nozh2002 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:03 am

The Mastiff wrote:... Falkniven has brought it to market about a year ago...
Thanks, I did not know that. So it should be then:

"...among all Mules only CPM S35VN (#6), CTS-BD1 (#10) are actually new steels introduced by Mule project - 17% of Mules and both have entry level performance..."

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Postby phillipsted » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:13 pm

Vassili - take your vituperous comments and find another forum to pollute.

And learn some manners while you are at it.

TedP
Worry less - Breathe more...

Spydie Fanatic #185

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Postby jtoler_9 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:37 pm

:) This is the song that never ends........


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