MT12P Cru-Wear Mule Team Recall - Answers

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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sal
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Postby sal » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:40 am

Hi Nozh,

You are correct. It was an oversight that we too would have prefered to avoid. My apologies for your wasted efforts.

sal

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Postby VashHash » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:49 am

Everyone makes mistakes but how you handle the mistake is what truly shows your character. With a sprint like the mule its the first time working with a new steel. There's a chance some were heat treated perfectly and others weren't but spyderco is doing their best to rectify the problem. Call me a fan boy if you will but its a hurdle for everyone. New products and short runs don't give a lot of time to figure out all the problems. I'm sure spyderco had tested some but it seems some also slipped through. This is common in manufacturing on a scale like spyderco.

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Postby nozh2002 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:38 pm

VashHash wrote:Everyone makes mistakes but how you handle the mistake is what truly shows your character. With a sprint like the mule its the first time working with a new steel. There's a chance some were heat treated perfectly and others weren't but spyderco is doing their best to rectify the problem. Call me a fan boy if you will but its a hurdle for everyone. New products and short runs don't give a lot of time to figure out all the problems. I'm sure spyderco had tested some but it seems some also slipped through. This is common in manufacturing on a scale like spyderco.
Fact that this Mule 12 is not high performer is pretty clear after first swipe on wet stone.

To me nobody care to check quality before start selling it and it is not about limited run or not limited, new steel or old steel... I can understand that as an excuse to have not best HT as possible, but not one which leads to recall.

They just did not tested it!

Now handling it is not really example of best effort, more like some damage control.

I like to be guaranteed to have same knife I bought back with problem fixed. Instead I got money back only for blank and non assured promise to have in some time refurbished knives being available to buy. I see no guarantee that I will have one of that, as well as no guarantee that this will ever happen (as it was with ZDP-189 Mule - never was resold), plus no guarantee that if this happen it will be better - only that they will test it this time before selling.

And I have sorry from Sal for my time and money wasted.

Honestly I start thinking that they did not do wrong HT, just standard one. I do not see why it is so much expected from this steel. To me Crucible did another random shot for produce good performer and failed again. Expectation is based on the anecdotal evidence that this is similar to Vascowear and anecdotal evidence that Vascowear was good on very limited knives made out of it long ago at the time when 440C was considered as best steel and most knives were made out of 420 or AUS-6...

Once they realize that this Cru-Wear is not up to modern standards - recall card came to play to make it looks like it is Spyderco fault...

Performance on my test is close to CPM S35VN - which is on 34th place and Cru-Wear is on 36th place, but nobody really recall CPM S35N Mule (at least I do not know about that). So I do not really see case here, until you have unreasonable expectations.

I do not know why but for several years knife industry drug this dead horse pretending that it is as good as ages ago, while Carpenter produces pretty good performers one after another. To me time to switch came while ago.

Dumping loads of Vanadium into steel worked once with CPM 440V but after that nothing good came out of this approach for years (and adding Niobium too does not work as well).

I rather see CTS 20P Mule which was promised by Sal while ago.

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Postby rycen » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:01 pm

Do you think GM dyno tests every engine in every car they make?
We would rather be the knife in your pocket, because is "works" better, than the knife in your showcase, because it "looks" better.

sal

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Postby sal » Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:25 pm

Hi Nozh,

As I said, it was Spyderco's fault. I do not believe that I indicated otherwise. Actually it was a computer glitch in the heat treating schedule and an overworked, but excellent scheduler didn't notice the glitch.

I cannot guarantee that we will never make another mistake. I assure you, we do not put mistakes into the schedule. We were testing as they were going out. Yes, we should have tested one first. That I can guarantee that we will not do again.

Mule Teams are a difficult project that few are interested to support which further complicates the projects. Between the special planning, working with the foundries, changing processes for each small batch and giving our heat treater headaches (on a project that he only does to please us), there is much room for error. And errors in this arena can be costly.

We are extending our best effort to right the situation. Your kind understanding and cooperation is appreciated.

sal

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Postby nozh2002 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:24 pm

sal wrote:Hi Nozh,

As I said, it was Spyderco's fault. I do not believe that I indicated otherwise. Actually it was a computer glitch in the heat treating schedule and an overworked, but excellent scheduler didn't notice the glitch.

I cannot guarantee that we will never make another mistake. I assure you, we do not put mistakes into the schedule. We were testing as they were going out. Yes, we should have tested one first. That I can guarantee that we will not do again.

Mule Teams are a difficult project that few are interested to support which further complicates the projects. Between the special planning, working with the foundries, changing processes for each small batch and giving our heat treater headaches (on a project that he only does to please us), there is much room for error. And errors in this arena can be costly.

We are extending our best effort to right the situation. Your kind understanding and cooperation is appreciated.

sal
This thing does not work on me... I grew up in USSR and there I learn from Hollywood propaganda that in free market society - US (unlike USSR) it is manufacturer job to please customers, not customers job to please manufacturer.

So I still have this concept in my mind - Hollywood did good job. This is why I can not be fan boy and can not understand one.

My cooperation is buying product you produced and do not expect me understand somehow that it is OK for you to not to test knives before selling them. This has nothing to do with HT scheduler, this is about quality control, which is absent. What are you saying - all knifes got wrong HT but no single one of them was ever tested or simple looked at and all goes to customers.

Scheduler error only meant poor quality of product inside your factory. Not a big deal. But because you do not testing it (not a single) - it get shipped to customers and causes all this troubles you are poorly handling now. What cooperation and understanding do you expect here?

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Postby captnvegtble » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:18 pm

nozh2002 wrote:This thing does not work on me... I grew up in USSR and there I learn from Hollywood propaganda that in free market society - US (unlike USSR) it is manufacturer job to please customers, not customers job to please manufacturer.

So I still have this concept in my mind - Hollywood did good job. This is why I can not be fan boy and can not understand one.

My cooperation is buying product you produced and do not expect me understand somehow that it is OK for you to not to test knives before selling them. This has nothing to do with HT scheduler, this is about quality control, which is absent. What are you saying - all knifes got wrong HT but no single one of them was ever tested or simple looked at and all goes to customers.

Scheduler error only meant poor quality of product inside your factory. Not a big deal. But because you do not testing it (not a single) - it get shipped to customers and causes all this troubles you are poorly handling now. What cooperation and understanding do you expect here?
1. Sal never said it was "OK" they didn't test the knives. He owned up to the mistake and apologized.

2. You don't need to be a "fan boy". You only need to understand that an unintentional mistake was made and be accepting that nobody (and no company) is perfect.

3. The cooperation expected is to stop whining about how wrong this incident was. S**t happens. Sal is trying to make it as right as possible.

4. We don't live in Hollywood - movies are fictitious. Thankfully "Hobo with a Shotgun" isn't a documentary.

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Postby Freediver » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:27 pm

Nozh, what are you looking for at this point? Sal apologized and admitted there was a mistake. Weren't you already banned from bladeforums for this sort of nonsense?

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Postby DCDesigns » Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:50 pm

nozh2002 wrote:This thing does not work on me... I grew up in USSR and there I learn from Hollywood propaganda that in free market society - US (unlike USSR) it is manufacturer job to please customers, not customers job to please manufacturer.

So I still have this concept in my mind - Hollywood did good job. This is why I can not be fan boy and can not understand one.

My cooperation is buying product you produced and do not expect me understand somehow that it is OK for you to not to test knives before selling them. This has nothing to do with HT scheduler, this is about quality control, which is absent. What are you saying - all knifes got wrong HT but no single one of them was ever tested or simple looked at and all goes to customers.

Scheduler error only meant poor quality of product inside your factory. Not a big deal. But because you do not testing it (not a single) - it get shipped to customers and causes all this troubles you are poorly handling now. What cooperation and understanding do you expect here?

You make little to no sense in your arguments. If you blame crucible for poor steel composition, then why the hell are you mad at spyderco? If you blame spyderco for the HT testing issue, how are you dragging crucible into it? You seem to be irrationally angry at everyone.

You just got not one, but two, personal apologies from the CEO and Founder of the freaking company. The fact that you even have anyone to b**ch to is what sets Spyderco apart in the first place. Any other company you'd have to call to some call center and speak your gibberish to some no name service rep. This may not be "Mother Russia" but the world still does not bend to your beck and call.

I'd like to hear what Solidstate has to say about your knowledge of steel composition.

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Postby jabba359 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:33 pm

For any of you who are newer on the boards and aren't familiar with nozh2002, this is his typical behavior and he had disappeared for quite a while after a spat with Mike Janich (over something about a shoe...). Unfortunately he's back and trolling again, cause that's all he seems to know how to do anymore. He's never happy with what Spyderco does and is always complaining and expecting unreasonable things. For someone who seems to dislike Spyderco so much, I can't seem to fathom why he continues to buy their products.
nozh2002 wrote:This thing does not work on me... I grew up in USSR and there I learn from Hollywood propaganda that in free market society - US (unlike USSR) it is manufacturer job to please customers, not customers job to please manufacturer.

So I still have this concept in my mind - Hollywood did good job.
If Hollywood taught you everything you needed to know about capitalism, then that explains a lot...
DCDesigns wrote:You make little to no sense in your arguments. If you blame crucible for poor steel composition, then why the hell are you mad at spyderco? If you blame spyderco for the HT testing issue, how are you dragging crucible into it? You seem to be irrationally angry at everyone.
Glad to see I wasn't the only one who noticed his contradictory little bit of lunacy.
-Kyle

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Latest arrivals: Opus, Q Ball, GITD Delica 4

http://www.spydiewiki.com

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Postby nozh2002 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:39 pm

Freediver wrote:Nozh, what are you looking for at this point? Sal apologized and admitted there was a mistake. Weren't you already banned from bladeforums for this sort of nonsense?
I was was banned from bladeforums because of my edge retention testing which show real value of steel.

Official reason for ban by Bastit was - "Enough of your garbage here".

Now absence of quality control is not little mistake. It is a huge problem.

You see this "little scheduler mistake" makes all of Mules 12 bad and if this was not found before shipping - then Spyderco did not tested any of it! Now is this little mistake? No! This raise quite a big question - does they have quality control at all?

Do not try to play it to mistake - this is much bigger then that.

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Postby DCDesigns » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:47 pm

nozh2002 wrote:
Official reason for ban by Bastit was - "Enough of your garbage here".
I have to agree with him. You aren't even saying anything anymore. If its not a mistake what is it, a conspiracy to F**k with you? Thats right nozh, sal did it on purpose just to piss you off. Come on man, just let it go.

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Postby mattman » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:03 pm

DC-
I hate to be cliché, but, "Don't feed the troll"
This is how he rolls. He will never accept anyones explanation, no matter how logical, and will continue to argue in circles... read up some more of the same at BF...
Circles, I tell you.

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Postby DCDesigns » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:10 pm

mattman wrote:DC-
I hate to be cliché, but, "Don't feed the troll"
This is how he rolls. He will never accept anyones explanation, no matter how logical, and will continue to argue in circles... read up some more of the same at BF...
Circles, I tell you.
I get that. No more food from me, I just hope the mods kick him out.

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Postby JNewell » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:15 pm

You have lost your grip on logic and reality.
nozh2002 wrote:I was was banned from bladeforums because of my edge retention testing which show real value of steel.

Official reason for ban by Bastit was - "Enough of your garbage here".

Now absence of quality control is not little mistake. It is a huge problem.

You see this little scheduler mistake makes all of Mules 12 bad and if this was not found before shipping - then Spyderco did not tested any of it! Now is this little mistake? No! This raise quite a big question - does they have quality control at all?

Do not try to play it to mistake - this is much bigger then that.

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Postby The Mastiff » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:46 am

You have lost your grip on logic and reality
Never had any in the time he's posted here and at BF. He is tolerated at places until he pushes it too far and gets banned. That seems to be his M.O. . That, and remembering events much differently from other people that were there. My guess is that he sees things much differently.

I do wonder what he is trying to accomplish with his rants. Free stuff? Declaring him the official "steel test master"? Restart the cold war?

Perhaps the last. If you look at the link to his site you will see he is stockpiling rifles now. ( I hope you're a citizen Nosh)

Who the hell knows? :(

joe
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800


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unit
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Postby unit » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:03 am

The Mastiff wrote: I do wonder what he is trying to accomplish with his rants.
Attention...and unfortunately he usually gets it.

I appreciate his ability to uncover major conspiracies. They are everywhere you know. He also has an amazing ability to sniff out subtleties and sarcasm.
Thanks,
Ken (my real name)

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Postby GronK » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:53 am

Occasionally mistakes are allowed out into the public domain. Unfortunately, retroactive birth control is not an option and Sal & Co are way too nice to ban him so we'll just have to put up with him. There ya go, Nozh, ya got yer 5 minutes. Happy now?
Think Twice, Post Once!
GronK

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Postby DougB2 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:55 pm

Hey Nozh, welcome to the West. Did Soviet producers ever make faulty products? (I know the answer; I've seen MiGs up close.) Were Soviet company presidents ever held accountable for the crap they made? As another member said, the founder of the company owned up and apologized. Either grow up and accept the man's apology and explanation or stop buying our stuff.

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Postby nozh2002 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:10 pm

Well, I was talking about Spyderco quality control. It looks like this issue trigger quite a bit of people do "their best" to show loyalty to Spyderco. But question still remain - Does Spyderco have any quality control, or it is substituted with hope that most time it will be OK (which is not working in Mule case) and if not OK damage control, official and non official - quite demonstrated here.

So far it looks like this issue do not really bother Spyderco as well as this "parade" of loyalty. I am not sure that the fact that I am not happy with this failure and my question about Spydecro quality control, can justify this tolerance to not quite polite replays.


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