pretty disappointed in my Carpenter para 2 sprint :(

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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gunnut35
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Postby gunnut35 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:04 pm

I hate to see any kind of fanboy bs...
If a product is flawed, then it is flawed no mater who makes it. It is just nonsense to imply that plp should be happy with it because it's made by Spyderco and it's a good deal. I would not care if it is a $30 knife made by co x or a $300 knife made by co z, if it has a defect then you did not get your money worth and you have every right to be unhappy.
The best thing to do is contact Spyderco, (call them) and see what they have to say about it. Spyderco produces, (IMHO) the best production knives on the market and their customer service is one of the best so just contact them and take it from there.

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Postby CrimsonTideShooter » Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:12 pm

Stefan Roth wrote:I disagree. If such a steel shows a colored stain, it definitely was hotter than 400°C, definitely messing up any heat treat. I would not tolerate that either.

Concerning the handles, I consider this beeing within specs.
I disagree with you, respectfully.

Steel would have to be held at that temp for an extended period of time to affect HT at all. Sure it may get hot enough to temper, but the temp is not sustained long enough to actually change the heat treat.

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Postby GoMeR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:25 pm

CrimsonTideShooter wrote:I disagree with you, respectfully.

Steel would have to be held at that temp for an extended period of time to affect HT at all. Sure it may get hot enough to temper, but the temp is not sustained long enough to actually change the heat treat.
So you are saying that if I took the blade out and hit it with the rosebud tip on my O/A torch just long enough to get the entire blade glowing red, this would not affect the heat treat in any way? This would literally take seconds to get it glowing red as thin as these blades are. By your reasoning as long as its not an extended period of time it would not hurt the heat treat?

In my experience most steels get very brittle when they are rapidly heated, and especially when they are heated and rapidly cooled.

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Postby CrimsonTideShooter » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:14 pm

GoMeR wrote:So you are saying that if I took the blade out and hit it with the rosebud tip on my O/A torch just long enough to get the entire blade glowing red, this would not affect the heat treat in any way? This would literally take seconds to get it glowing red as thin as these blades are. By your reasoning as long as its not an extended period of time it would not hurt the heat treat?

In my experience most steels get very brittle when they are rapidly heated, and especially when they are heated and rapidly cooled.
No, glowing temp will temper the steel pretty much instantly. But for a low degree to temper the heat must be sustained.

The benchmark for ruining any heat treat is pretty much glowing hot. Pretty much guaranteed if it glows. It doesn't really matter what has been done before that, if you heat the steel to glowing and let it cool slowly it will be back to what is called an annealed state. Quenching it would harden it, however.

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Postby Stefan Roth » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:45 pm

There was some evaluation going on at german knifeforums. One engineer evaluated that it just needs seconds to loose hardness at these temperatures.

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Henry1960
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Postby Henry1960 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:47 pm

gunnut35 wrote:I hate to see any kind of fanboy bs...
If a product is flawed, then it is flawed no mater who makes it. Is is just nonsense to imply that plp should be happy with it because it's made by Spyderco and it's a good deal. I would not care if it is a $30 knife made by co x or a $300 knife made by co z, if it has a defect then you did not get your money worth and you have every right to be unhappy.
The best thing to do is contact Spyderco, (call them) and see what they have to say about it. Spyderco produces, (IMHO) the best production knives on the market and their customer service is one of the best so just contact them and take it from there.

DITO!!!!

I do have to say though, I would never buy from a dealer that would not take returns as a good example in this case....
Henry


My Wife Say`s I Buy One More Spydie She`s Going To Divorce Me....God I`m Going To Miss Her!!! :rolleyes:

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Postby Jordan » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:48 pm

Henry1960 wrote:DITO!!!!

I do have to say though, I would never buy from a dealer that would not take returns as a good example in this case....
Well, you'd be missing out... Howe's is a great dealer. Low prices, prompt service, free shipping. The only knives that they don't accept returns on are sale and sprint items. And even then for the reason that many people have brought up already, they can't necessarily replace those items. So, were they to be returned, the company would have to refund the purchase price and either eat the loss of the subpar item or try to resell it at a discounted rate. They absolutely accept returns on normal production knives though.

Of course, the selfish part of me hopes that lots of people feel the way you do... Howe's preorders and sprints tend to sell quickly due to the prices, the more people that feel their return policy is reason enough to boycott... the better my odds at getting a preorder spot for whatever my next must have Spyderco happens to be :p .
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Postby Slash » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:54 pm

I believe in my heart that most all dealers go out of their way to make sure a customer is satisfied. Saying that they still need to turn a profit. Thus, I completlely understand their policy to not take back a sprint run knife.

Still, I would think that if they have good relations with the manufacturer that something could and would be done.

In the end customer satisfaction should be priority. Even if they are more picky that others.

You know that old saying that goes, "you can satisfy some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time."

Perfect case example.

edit: when you decide to send the knife back to Spyderco, I'm sure you will be satisfied with their decision to fix/replace the one you have or give credit for another one.

NO reason to bash the dealer in this circumstance. Which I don't think was the op meaning for the thread. Some people just don't read everything. I will still purchase from Howe's.

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Postby mongatu » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:58 pm

I don't see why the dealer can't return defective knives that were promptly returned to them (in new, unused condition) to the manufacturer, i.e., Spyderco. I can understand why they wouldn't want the added hassle but, imo, that is part of providing good customer service.
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Postby Jordan » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:21 pm

So... you want to ship a knife back to the dealer, so they can in turn ship it to Spyderco, who will repair the defect or make the determination that the knife is not outside the standard, send it back to the dealer who will ship it back to you. Sounds like an easy way to tack on a few weeks to the W&R turnaround time with no discernible benefit to the purchaser. Even if a dealer that I used had that kind of arrangement available (and I don't believe any of them do...), I wouldn't take advantage of it. I'd rather just communicate directly with the manufacturer.

I think that good customer service (for an online knife shop, at least) means providing your knives at a fair price, frequently updating the website so it reflects the current stock, filling and shipping orders as quickly as you practically can, updating the customer on the status of the order whenever it changes, and ensuring that orders are filled accurately. I don't doubt that if a unit comes into Howe's with obvious defects (i.e... the knife is broken, non functional) it gets sent back to Golden without being sold. They have a spotless record with me personally... but even here, the forum with the most detail oriented, knowledgeable Spyderco fans on the internet, the only complaints I've heard about knives delivered by them have been for relatively minor cosmetic issues. No offence to anyone who's gotten on of these knives... I understand that when you spend money on something you want it to be perfect... I am not trying to downplay the seriousness of your specific issues. What I'm saying is that if I were running a knife shop, these are things that reasonably could have escaped a cursory inspection.
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Postby Jay_Ev » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:52 pm

Slash wrote:NO reason to bash the dealer in this circumstance. Which I don't think was the op meaning for the thread. Some people just don't read everything. I will still purchase from Howe's.
So will I. However, I think it's too little too late & the damage is already done. Reading through this thread, it appears many have already blacklisted Howe's and placed them on their "do not buy from" list. :(
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flash900
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Postby flash900 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:52 pm

I can understand why a dealer wouldn't want to accept returns, although as a consumer I feel differently about that.

But even a dealer who won't accept returns should be willing to inspect a knife. I simply wouldn't buy a collector's item such as this from anyone who wouldn't inspect my purchase.

If you don't mind my asking, did you you ask him to inspect it?
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Postby Slash » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:17 pm

flash900 wrote:I can understand why a dealer wouldn't want to accept returns, although as a consumer I feel differently about that.

But even a dealer who won't accept returns should be willing to inspect a knife. I simply wouldn't buy a collector's item such as this from anyone who wouldn't inspect my purchase.

If you don't mind my asking, did you you ask him to inspect it?
good question. however, I've never asked any dealer to inspect any of my knife purchases. just bad luck I guess? perhaps if I ever got in the business I would check every knife to make sure it was good.

refer to my earlier statement. I think this will get fixed and Gomer will be satisfied. Spyderco is a great company and will do what is right.

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Postby The Deacon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:37 pm

flash900 wrote:I can understand why a dealer wouldn't want to accept returns, although as a consumer I feel differently about that.

But even a dealer who won't accept returns should be willing to inspect a knife. I simply wouldn't buy a collector's item such as this from anyone who wouldn't inspect my purchase.

If you don't mind my asking, did you you ask him to inspect it?
The fact that people buy something as a collectors item does not mean it the manufacturer intended it as one. But, assuming a dealer is willing to inspect, then the question becomes, inspect to insure what? Just as peoples opinions of what is acceptable in a production knife are going to differ, so will their expectations of what a dealer should look for, and what they should consider grounds to reject a given knife. Those expectations could range from the extremely reasonable, making sure the correct knife is in the box and that it appears to be intact, to the extremely unreasonable, absolute perfection at 10X magnification and razor sharp to boot.

As for collectors, I still go back to the advice, which I never personally heeded, of a collector of semi-production fixed blades the cheapest of which are more expensive than any Spyderco. "Buy five, keep the best and resell the rest".
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Postby RobC2 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:45 pm

If you ask me, I think no returns is a good policy if you think about it. You are free to go to the manufacturer if you have issues, but the likelihood of you getting someone else's return is much less. I swear I have gotten at least two or three knives this year that were flat out used and probably returned and resold without the seller knowing. None of these were purchased by any of the big name vendors here, in case anyone is wondering, but something to keep in mind.

I still think telling people to accept problems in a higher end production knife is uncool, unless you are willing to buy it from them right now for the price they paid for it. It is just cosmetic, right? You can probably resell it for more, can't you? If they can make a near flawless looking knife in China for $30, I am sure Spyderco can make a nearer to flawless looking knife for six times that. One curious thing, I have not seen any notable flaws on the Taiwan knives. They seem to be uniformly exceptional.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:52 pm

RobC2 wrote: If they can make a near flawless looking knife in China for $30, I am sure Spyderco can make a nearer to flawless looking knife for six times that. One curious thing, I have not seen any notable flaws on the Taiwan knives. They seem to be uniformly exceptional.
That's probably because they make lots and lots and when they ones that don't pass QC are taken out, you have the "near flawless" ones. I'll still take a blemished 20CP para over a "near flawless" $30 knife.

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Postby Fred Sanford » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:57 pm

Spyderco makes knives that beg to be used. If you want to buy collector pieces you might want to start buying Case knives or Gold Class Benchmades.

These are such first world problems that it's almost funny.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:58 pm

David Lowry wrote:Spyderco makes knives that beg to be used. If you want to buy collector pieces you might want to start buying Case knives or Gold Class Benchmades.

These are such first world problems that it's almost funny.

Use your tool.
Totally agree!

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Postby GoMeR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:02 pm

flash900 wrote:I can understand why a dealer wouldn't want to accept returns, although as a consumer I feel differently about that.

But even a dealer who won't accept returns should be willing to inspect a knife. I simply wouldn't buy a collector's item such as this from anyone who wouldn't inspect my purchase.

If you don't mind my asking, did you you ask him to inspect it?
I did not ask no, I was made aware of the stock after the dealer was closed and I felt if I waited I would not be able to get a knife. There are a couple dealers that I do ask for inspection but honestly at the price these knives are selling for on the secondary market($200-$220+) I was really happy just to be able to get one at a decent price.

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Postby RobC2 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:11 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:That's probably because they make lots and lots and when they ones that don't pass QC are taken out, you have the "near flawless" ones. I'll still take a blemished 20CP para over a "near flawless" $30 knife.
Assuming the markup is the same percentage, then they should have the same ability to "toss" the ones that don't pass QC. It has been said that prices are set based at what the knife costs to make, not what the market will bear, do I don't see why it should be different because a knife is more expensive, it is just percents. Add in the fact that sprints are not discounted as much as normal models in retail and it gets worse. I would rather have a scratched Corvette than a flawless Cobalt too. But if I paid for a new Corvette, I would want it to look like a new Corvette. Never mind that a scratched Corvette and a non-scratched one both go like hell, or that both a Corvette and a Cobalt will both get you where you are going. That is not the point.


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