pretty disappointed in my Carpenter para 2 sprint :(

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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chuck_roxas45
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:00 pm

I hate blade play of any kind. When I got my grey para, there was a bit of side to side wobble and I was a bit bummed.

Then I started using it. I rebeveled and cut some things with it. I found that the wobble wasn't even apparent when cutting.

Now, you can't get that grey para out of my LFP, well only the brown millie can. And that one had an uneven grind OOTB.

Points to ponder:

* Production knives can not all be perfect. Even Spydercos.

* If the "defect" is something that affects functionality, I'd guess that Spyderco will take care of it.

* If the "defect" is cosmetic, the knife will in all probability, be within specs.

* You either have to live with these points or buy something else which will make you happy.

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Postby mongatu » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:29 am

I'd be pretty upset about the blade, not so much about the cosmetic issues with the G10. The blade looks like it doesn't come to a proper point. Also, the discoloration is not just cosmetic, it is likely an indication that the knife was over heated when grinding and this could mess up the heat treat.

Re Howes, yes their policy of no returns on sprints is clearly stated. Still, it kind of sucks, imo. Fortunately, Spyderco usually stands behind their products and hopefully will make it right for the OP.
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Postby Stefan Roth » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:27 am

None of the problems are anything that could affect performance. The colors or stains on the blades could be cleaned off with no special materials or techniques. The average house has things you could use including stuff like toothpaste.
I disagree. If such a steel shows a colored stain, it definitely was hotter than 400°C, definitely messing up any heat treat. I would not tolerate that either.

Concerning the handles, I consider this beeing within specs.

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Postby GoMeR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:30 am

This thread is in no way meant to bad mouth Howes, I received nothing but excellent service from them and I could not be happier with how my order was handled. I read and understood the rules listed on the site prior to placing my order, any concerns after the fact fall on me, not Howes. I am sorry this is one of the things being taken away from reading this thread, that was not my intention and I even said early on my service was great.

Joe, I agree with some of what you are saying but disagree with some of it as well. Let me ask you this, if you were looking for this particular model new or on the secondary market and it was listed saying the tip has some discoloration from excessive heat during grinding, would you purchase it or wait for a another example? That one thing would be enough for me to wait for another example to show up on the market and perhaps miss trying the knife all together if another didn't come up for sale. Yes I understand it is not possible to examine a knife being purchased online but is that something that would concern you, or without a doubt you would still purchase that knife?

Perhaps my expectations are to high and I have just been lucky over the years but I do not think this is the case. I do feel Spyderco is perfectly capable of producing a product that meets and exceeds what I am after in a knife. They have in the past and will continue in the future to produce a fine product that meets and exceeds what I am after in this type of tool.

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Postby jackknifeh » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:15 am

About Spyderco's QC, I wonder what they do exactly as far as inspecting the finished product. I don't think any company would have a QC person looking at each and every piece. Right after high school I worked at a factory assembly line making stove pipe. We made the pipe and boxed it. Once in a while someone would come along and look at a couple of pieces for quality. Therefor if Spyderco's practice is something like that it would be possible for one piece (or a few I guess) of less quality to slip by.

That's talking about the QC dept. There still is a person boxing each knife and I would think they would set aside a knife they thought was inferior for some reason and let someone else make a final decision.

This post is about the knife in this thread and other Spyderco knives in general. I'm not asking about Spyderco's QC process, just typing out loud. I still think the knife in question should be looked at by Spyderco for their opion. My concern if it were my knife would be the heat treat of the blade.

Jack

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Postby The Deacon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:02 am

The problem is that Spyderco is building tools, while some folks are buying investment vehicles. Spyderco's motivation for offering Sprints, especially those of the Golden made models, is to give users an opportunity to try something they might otherwise not get to try. Pulling knives due to minor cosmetic imperfections, assuming they were even noticed during assembly and packaging, would deprive one person of sampling that Sprint.

Aside from the discoloration near the tip, all the imperfections mentioned are clearly in that category, and there's not sure way of knowing that it too is anything more than cosmetic.

That said, I know not everyone sees things that way. Same with return policies. I've reached the point where I think dealers should not accept returns unless they shipped the wrong knife. With only rare exceptions, manufacturing defects, significant or not, should not be their problem. To me, if someone is dissatisfied with the condition of a knife they've purchased, returning it to the manufacturer for evaluation is the most reasonable course of action.
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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:14 am

Well, I would be pretty upset with a discolored handle on a power drill. :p

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Postby Leatherneck » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:20 am

Lord knows Spyderco is my favorite company and knife and it's all I ever buy anymore but nobody should in any way be made to feel silly or picky for being disappointed in a "special" knife that comes with a "special" price. Yes they are tools, yes they still functional but in the end only the person holding the knife, looking at it everyday matters. This isn't a $12 hammer with some scratches but rather a piece that is meant to be special in both form and function.
Given that, a less than perfect Spyderco knife is gonna happen from time to time just like any other knife manufacturer out there. Most of the time there is a happy ending and if it weren't so there wouldn't be so many of us!
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Postby vic » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:50 am

The Deacon wrote:To me, if someone is dissatisfied with the condition of a knife they've purchased, returning it to the manufacturer for evaluation is the most reasonable course of action.

i'd love to be able to send some of my knives back to the manufacturer but being in the uk it's just not possible: if i sent a knife back to spyderco it would get stolen by customs on it's return.

people in my situation are limited to dealing with the dealer they purchased the item from, and if that dealer is say, in the u.s., then there's not much we can do because if it's a folding knife, customs will steal it when it comes back

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Postby vic » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:55 am

mongatu wrote:I'd be pretty upset about the blade, not so much about the cosmetic issues with the G10. The blade looks like it doesn't come to a proper point. Also, the discoloration is not just cosmetic, it is likely an indication that the knife was over heated when grinding and this could mess up the heat treat.

Re Howes, yes their policy of no returns on sprints is clearly stated. Still, it kind of sucks, imo. Fortunately, Spyderco usually stands behind their products and hopefully will make it right for the OP.
yes the blade with the deformed tip and the shady grind/discolouration is just too much i agree

for that money, the handles would bother me too but if this knife is just a tool and not an expensive knife for afi's then even the blade is not adequate, it's the wrong shape, ground badly and might have a damaged heat treat

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Postby The Deacon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:48 am

vic wrote:i'd love to be able to send some of my knives back to the manufacturer but being in the uk it's just not possible: if i sent a knife back to spyderco it would get stolen by customs on it's return.

people in my situation are limited to dealing with the dealer they purchased the item from, and if that dealer is say, in the u.s., then there's not much we can do because if it's a folding knife, customs will steal it when it comes back
Point taken. By the same token, people in your situation should understand that before they buy. It's also one of the reasons Spyderco encourages folks outside the US to buy from dealers in their own countries whenever possible, but I know that's not always realistic. I'm aware that can mean both having a more limited selection of models to choose from and paying almost twice as much for a knife. But if Spyderco were to inspect each and every knife and reject any with even the most minor cosmetic imperfections, everyone would be paying twice as much, or more.

Expecting pre-shipment inspection by the dealer can be unrealistic as well. For one thing, it assumes a level of expertise that may not exist. For another, there's the nagging suspicion that, unless you're the first customer to get one, the knife you receive will only be the least imperfect of what's left. Somehow, I'd prefer to just have everyone deal with the luck of the draw.

Again, I don't expect everyone (or, for that matter, anyone) to agree with me.
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Postby JNewell » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:54 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:
Points to ponder:

* Production knives can not all be perfect. Even Spydercos.

* If the "defect" is something that affects functionality, I'd guess that Spyderco will take care of it.

* If the "defect" is cosmetic, the knife will in all probability, be within specs.

* You either have to live with these points or buy something else which will make you happy.
Thank you, exactly right. :spyder:

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Postby bh49 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:26 am

With all due respect I disagree with at least one one point.
chuck_roxas45 wrote: * If the "defect" is cosmetic, the knife will in all probability, be within specs.
.
" WARRANTY INFORMATION:

Spyderco warrants that all of our products are free from defects in material and workmanship. "

http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=10

dents, stains, scratches on G10 or blade certainly cosmetic, but still defects of workmanship or material, if Spyderco buy G10 per-fabricated with texture.
The only cosmetic defect on my para2 was a shiny spot in the center of the scale, which looked like melted plastic. I sent it to spyderco for evaluation and mentioned that if they cannot fix, I still want the knife. I received back a new knife, so it looks like cs agreed with me.
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Postby gunnut35 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:43 am

I agree with you on a lot of things but this is pure fandoy bs. A defect in any product is still a defect and it is wrong to say since it's a Spyderco it should be overlooked. A cosmetic flaw is not a issue for me but in a sprint most plp want it to be perfect, and they should not expect anything different.
I am not trying to start a flam war but a flaw is a flaw, no mater what company sends it out. :D

To the original OP, I would contact Spyderco and see what they have to say because things do get overlooked but they still have the best quality knives you can get and the best customer service around.
The Deacon wrote:The problem is that Spyderco is building tools, while some folks are buying investment vehicles. Spyderco's motivation for offering Sprints, especially those of the Golden made models, is to give users an opportunity to try something they might otherwise not get to try. Pulling knives due to minor cosmetic imperfections, assuming they were even noticed during assembly and packaging, would deprive one person of sampling that Sprint.

Aside from the discoloration near the tip, all the imperfections mentioned are clearly in that category, and there's not sure way of knowing that it too is anything more than cosmetic.

That said, I know not everyone sees things that way. Same with return policies. I've reached the point where I think dealers should not accept returns unless they shipped the wrong knife. With only rare exceptions, manufacturing defects, significant or not, should not be their problem. To me, if someone is dissatisfied with the condition of a knife they've purchased, returning it to the manufacturer for evaluation is the most reasonable course of action.

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Postby vic » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:46 am

The Deacon wrote:Point taken. By the same token, people in your situation should understand that before they buy. It's also one of the reasons Spyderco encourages folks outside the US to buy from dealers in their own countries whenever possible, but I know that's not always realistic. I'm aware that can mean both having a more limited selection of models to choose from and paying almost twice as much for a knife. But if Spyderco were to inspect each and every knife and reject any with even the most minor cosmetic imperfections, everyone would be paying twice as much, or more.

Expecting pre-shipment inspection by the dealer can be unrealistic as well. For one thing, it assumes a level of expertise that may not exist. For another, there's the nagging suspicion that, unless you're the first customer to get one, the knife you receive will only be the least imperfect of what's left. Somehow, I'd prefer to just have everyone deal with the luck of the draw.

Again, I don't expect everyone (or, for that matter, anyone) to agree with me.
i wasn't even thinking about pre-shipment inspection or anything like that, just that it's impossible for some people to send stuff back to spyderco or other manufacturers because of corrupt customs on our end so we have to rely on dealers in the uk who rip us off in the first place (thank you for acknowledging that by the way deacon):

a standard s30v para 2 from a reliable uk dealer is £112 and a black bladed one is £125!, this dealer is reliable but is also taking complete advantage of us by charging way too much because they know we can't order from the us without having our knives stolen: really bad and it totally prohibits what we (i) can buy, i'd like a police 3 and a military but they are £151 and £145 respectively, that is prohibitively expensive

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Postby The Deacon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:11 am

bh49 wrote:With all due respect I disagree with at least one one point.


" WARRANTY INFORMATION:

Spyderco warrants that all of our products are free from defects in material and workmanship. "

http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=10

dents, stains, scratches on G10 or blade certainly cosmetic, but still defects of workmanship or material, if Spyderco buy G10 per-fabricated with texture.
The only cosmetic defect on my para2 was a shiny spot in the center of the scale, which looked like melted plastic. I sent it to spyderco for evaluation and mentioned that if they cannot fix, I still want the knife. I received back a new knife, so it looks like cs agreed with me.
With all due respect Roman, Spyderco warrants their knives will be free of defects, that is to say against things which interfere with the proper operation of the knife. Imperfections are not defects unless they have some impact on function.

That's not to say they'd never replace a knife with only cosmetic imperfections, just that it would take one they consider serious. I would not be surprised if that level of allowable imperfection may be greater for a Sprint designed to serve as a testbed for exotic steel than for regular production models. However, the bottom line remains the same, only Spyderco can say whether "knife X" meets their standards or does not. Threads like this may be entertaining, and do serve to highlight the differences in the way folks think, but that's about it.
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Postby GoMeR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:12 am

Deacon, I fully agree with you on the return policy for the sprints even production models. I feel its not fair for dealers to have worry about taking back a knife when a customer is not happy for some reason beyond the dealers control.

I also fully agree with what you said about the pre-shipment inspection, some of the dealers may only get 1 or 2 pieces of a sprint run, its not as if they have a pile to look through. As you said someone is going to have to get the last one, or last few even.

If I was a dealer I would be very concerned about customer service and making sure my customers are happy, however profit is also a concern. If you cannot make money you must fold up shop, there has to be a happy median with most everything you do to remain in business.

I appreciate everyone's response, as of now I am going to send the knife in to Golden with a note about my concerns and have it inspected.

This will be the very first time I have sent a knife in for inspection, I have probably bought 30+ higher end Spydercos in my life. I think that's speaks well for Spydercos quality control and manufacturing process. One reason I continue to buy from Sal and crew.

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Postby SQSAR » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:15 am

Leatherneck wrote:Lord knows Spyderco is my favorite company and knife and it's all I ever buy anymore but nobody should in any way be made to feel silly or picky for being disappointed in a "special" knife that comes with a "special" price. Yes they are tools, yes they still functional but in the end only the person holding the knife, looking at it everyday matters. This isn't a $12 hammer with some scratches but rather a piece that is meant to be special in both form and function.
Given that, a less than perfect Spyderco knife is gonna happen from time to time just like any other knife manufacturer out there. Most of the time there is a happy ending and if it weren't so there wouldn't be so many of us!
Very well said.

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Postby bh49 » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:39 am

Paul,
Imperfection is very broad term. My opinion regarding workmanship based on military standard for workmanship. This standard is widely accepted by many industries, but nobody is is obligated to use it, unless you are making product per customer specification and workmanship per MIL-STD is one of them. Spyderco, like any other producer makes product per their own specification, which is not publicly known, so nobody except Spyderco can determine, if knife within specification or not.
We are as customers have our own expectation, which we feel reasonable and which not always the same as specifications
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Postby The Deacon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:54 am

bh49 wrote:Paul,
Imperfection is very broad term. My opinion regarding workmanship based on military standard for workmanship. This standard is widely accepted by many industries, but nobody is is obligated to use it, unless you are making product per customer specification and workmanship per MIL-STD is one of them. Spyderco, like any other producer makes product per their own specification, which is not publicly known, so nobody except Spyderco can determine, if knife within specification or not.
We are as customers have our own expectation, which we feel reasonable and which not always the same as specifications
True Roman, but defect is more specific, it means something that makes the item defective, unable to perform its intended function properly.

We agree that only Spyderco can determine whether any given knife meets their standards. We also agree that every individual judges things by his own personal standards. But, unless a product carries a "satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" type warranty, the fact it does not meet a particular individual's standards does not necessarily mean it should be replaced.
Paul
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