Sprint's turning into Laps

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
RedRunner
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Postby RedRunner » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:13 pm

I think we get a little to wrapped up in the numbers Spyderco produces or how they sell their knives. There is no real consensus - we all have our own opinion. My opinion is that Spyderco is doing it just right.

Some knives are tougher to get and in general (yes I know it's not completely true) when Spyderco stops producing a model sprint or production, the price goes up. Obviously sprints are produced for a shorter period of time and they go up more (again - in general, but not always the case.)

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markg
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Postby markg » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:23 pm

Sprint runs are made for enthusiasts. They can be collectors or users. A collector is normally a person who likes what they collect, and value is often a secondary (however important) quality.

Spyderco sprint runs have never been in the numbers to really increase in value. Normally you need below 250 knives and some manufacturers used to make collectable runs as low as 25...

If you want to invest your money in something, put it in the stock market...

Oh wait...

Maybe buying knives as an investment is a good idea.

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Postby DaRTH SfaRi » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:49 pm

Evil D wrote:My thoughts are that Spyderco doesn't make sprint runs so people can buy them and price them for 3x what they were bought for, so they don't have that mentality when deciding how many to produce.
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Postby The Mastiff » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:52 am

We have been trying to talk Sal and Eric into producing larger sprint runs so I don't think there will be much agreement about trying to keep numbers low so you can flip knives for a profit. If you are going to become a knife dealer, than become a knife dealer.

People who buy to flip aren't going to get a lot of sympathy. You might have noticed a lot of us sort of look down on that. It makes it more difficult and more expensive for a lot of folks who weren't able to get on a successful pre order.

Selling the occasional knife to get a better fit, or in times of need is different. A lot of us have done that.

I used to sell knives for extra money on the gun and knife show circuit. I did that along with working two jobs for extra money so it can to be done. You might consider something like that if you really want to get some serious time with knives. You can run accross some amazing trades and rare knives for your collection as well. Most other dealers will sell you knives at much lower than tag price if they know you are another dealer and I've bought some of my favorite rare spyders from trade ins that way.

It's a nice way to meet a lot of great people too.
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D56
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Postby D56 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:31 am

jabba359 wrote:What do you mean none the wiser? The way you phrase this makes it sound like nobody was helpful in answering your question, yet this couldn't be further from the truth. If you read the thread, your question was answered and you even replied later by saying you'd like to say "Hello" to the previous owner of that collector club numbered knife, implying that you understood that it was a collector's club knife and certificate.

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50717
Hi jabba,
Suppose what I'm saying by "wiser" is that I don't get the ethos/practice of these limited items, it seems a bit gimmicky. I am grateful to all who take the time to answer my posts and grateful to those who explained to me about the 'collectors club' .... BTW, was your reply edited by a mod?

If the previous owner of my knife said "hello" it would be kind of novel, but this was not a request by myself saying "I would like to say hello" as you imply.

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Postby The Deacon » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:00 am

D56 wrote:Hi jabba,
Suppose what I'm saying by "wiser" is that I don't get the ethos/practice of these limited items, it seems a bit gimmicky. I am grateful to all who take the time to answer my posts and grateful to those who explained to me about the 'collectors club' .... BTW, was your reply edited by a mod?

If the previous owner of my knife said "hello" it would be kind of novel, but this was not a request by myself saying "I would like to say hello" as you imply.
First, just for clarity, the Squeak you purchased is not a Sprint, it's simply one of the first batch of a brand new regular production model. It is numbered, and came with the certificate, because somewhere under 200 knives from the first batch of every brand new Spyderco model are reserved for the members of the Spyderco Collectors Club and your knife happened to be one of those. IMHO, the Squeak is at the opposite end of the scale from a Sprint. It uses an FRN handle which is not shared with any other model. That means Spyderco had to invest somewhere between thirty and fifty thousand dollars in a mold. That, in turn, tells me they're betting it will be a high volume model.

As for the Club. Yes, you might consider it a marketing gimmick, in the sense that any manufacturer sponsored group which encourages or formalizes systematic purchasing of their product is, to some degree, a marketing ploy. On the other hand, if that's it's primary purpose, Spyderco is doing it very, very wrong. Aside from occasional threads on this forum where its existence comes up in conversation, I don't think there's a reference to it anywhere on Spyderco's main website. To me at least, that limits it's potential gimmick factor considerably.

As for limited items, the reasons are varied.

Sprint Runs of an existing model are limited to a finite number of pieces because, while Spyderco knows there is some demand for a "re-run" of a discontinued model, or for a current one in a specific steel, color, handle material, or other configuration, they don't envision the resulting knife will be of widespread interest. Making only "X" number of pieces limits the risk of them getting stuck with unsold knives and also increases the odds folks who want them will purchase them quickly. Other factors can also enter into it, steel must be purchased in increments set by the mill, so even if Spyderco felt making 1000 would be "safe", but their choice is limited to buying enough steel for 750 or for 1500, they'll probably elect to make the smaller number.

Limited Production configurations are limited by production capacity. If the maker can only produce 300 a month, and the demand is for 400 a month, there will be waiting lists and shortages. If the demand is only for 100 a month, then it will only get produced every couple months. If the demand drops below a certain point, the configuration will be retired.

Sponsored Exclusives are limited by the depth of the sponsor's pockets and/or their estimate of how many they can move. Unlike Sprints, the sponsor does have the option to re-order. It doesn't happen often, but AG Russell has been keeping the SnapIt alive that way for ten years or more and I believe it happened recently with the EDC forum Manix II.

Lastly, there are have been models which became "limited editions" by selling so poorly that only one run was ever manufactured.

And, for the record, I am not a mod, nor did I edit his post. He edited it to note that I'd posted essentially the same response while he was typing his. Same thing had happened, the other way around, a few days earlier, hence my comment in a post later in that thread.
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Postby akaAK » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:34 am

jtoler_9 wrote:I would be very interested in knowing what forums are trading forums as you call them. There are several Spydies I missed out on and I can't afford the aftermarket Ebay crowd. I wish to respect the rules that govern this forum. So I don't want to turn this into a trade conversation. But if it's allowable, I would love to know where and if you folks trade?

No offense meant but...
I would think this comment contradicts your OP. You want high prices for the spydies in your hand but low prices for those on your wish/flip list. Good luck with that. It would seem that the market has no problem keeping prices where they need to be. I have missed out on sprints as well, that is life. Part of that is speculators locking up a portion of the sprint to hopefully profit on the reduced supply. You pay your money and you take your chances. I don't have an issue with people making money buying and selling knives in the aftermarket, I don't have an issue with Spyderco setting quantities where they feel they can make a profit. I have seen some sprints linger on the market and know that isn't good for Sypderco.

I overpaid (some would say) for a CF S90V Millie, do I care, no. It is worth it every time I use it. Can I get my money back and a profit on it now, probably. The term is "play the market" and when you play there is always the chance you can lose.

If you want to limit quantities then there will be a lot more sprints that you will miss out on. Everyone has their opinion.

Interesting thread.

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Postby FlaMtnBkr » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:53 am

jossta wrote:Jerzee Devil, CPF Marketplace, EDC Forums, Knife Forums, Blade Forums.

Jerzee Devil CPFM and BF are the best, but I usually shy away from BF unless I REALLY need something since you can't search without a paid membership.

You can search on BF all you want without a paid membership. There are a couple places on each page where you can search, search only that forum you are in, or a link to an advanced search page.

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Postby jossta » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:30 am

FlaMtnBkr wrote:You can search on BF all you want without a paid membership. There are a couple places on each page where you can search, search only that forum you are in, or a link to an advanced search page.
Crap, lol.

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D56
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Postby D56 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:43 am

The Deacon wrote: And, for the record, I am not a mod, nor did I edit his post. He edited it to note that I'd posted essentially the same response while he was typing his. Same thing had happened, the other way around, a few days earlier, hence my comment in a post later in that thread.
Sorry, I thought the number on the collector’s models was the collector’s own number and not the order/number of pieces produces – do they only go up to 200 then?

I don’t think it’s a “marketing gimmick” (as yet another member puts words into my mouth) just well gimmicky – in a geeky sort of way. Numbered ‘first batches’ and ‘sprint runs' are different things which I already knew, but come under the same ‘limited’ subject which is what I’m talking about.

Drop the one-upmanship tone in your responses (esp last paragraph), it can be off putting and is not conducive to a forum like this.

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Postby The Deacon » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:51 am

The Collectors Club is limited to a maximum of 200 members, but there have never been 200 active at one time. There as several membership levels. Any time a brand new model is introduced all members receive one. If more than one version of it, say serrated and plain edge or serrated, part serrated, and plain edge, are produced at that time, then one of those versions, normally the serrated one, is designated as the "main" version and all CC members get one. The other version or versions are designated as "variants" and only members who've signed up at the "all variants" level receive those. Members signed up for "new models only", or "new models and Sprints" do not. Sprints fall somewhere in between, members signed up for "all variants" will get them, as will members signed up for "new models and Sprints". Members signed up for "new models only" do not. Only knives destined for active members are numbered, so there will always be less than 200 such knives.

Each member has a specific three digit number. Numbers are "recycled" when members drop out, and Spyderco normally assigns a new member the lowest one available, so a low number does not always indicate a long term member. When I was in it, mine was 043. So all the knives I received while in the club had 043 or 043V engraved on them.

As an example, when the Tasman Salt was introduced, four versions were released at once. Spyderco designated the black handled serrated version as the main version, the other three were variants. As an "all variants" member, I received all four:

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In addition to the CC numbered knives, other Spyderco knives get numbered as well, or at least have in the past. At one time Spyderco numbered the entire first production run of collaboration models. That practice ended about ten years ago. Even earlier, the entire first run of in house designs were occasionally numbered as well. Certain special runs have also been numbered. Among others, that group would include the Evolution Set, 20th Anniversary Worker, 25th Anniversary Delica, and the WTC Knife.

PS - you can always elect to put me on ignore if my writing style, or my opinions, offend you.
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D56
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Postby D56 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:08 am

The Deacon wrote:
PS - you can always elect to put me on ignore if my writing style, or my opinions, offend you.
No need for that - you can be informative without being a smarty pants as this last post shows - Thanks :)

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Postby monsterdog » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:23 am

I think Spyderco would benefit from moving from sprint runs to a custom shop for the more common sprint models, like Manix2, Para2, Millie.

So keep a bunch of blades on hand in different materials, handle scales in different materials, allow the user to say "I want an M4 blade with Ti scales" and charge a price based on the materials price, markup and a custom fee of maybe $20-30 for assembly.

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Postby Evil D » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:38 pm

I would gladly pay $20-30 extra for a custom knife (priced according to just how custom it was, of course).

When i first discovered Spyderco, the catalog really confused me..i had the impression that they pretty much WERE custom, or more that each could be ordered with different steel and handle materials. I think it was the drop downs that tell about each steel/material that confused me into thinking that.

I've always loved the idea of creating my own knife out of a selection of options. I really hope this could be a reality someday, at least on the more popular/common knives like the Delica/Endura and other knives that have a long running history.
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Postby jtoler_9 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:18 pm

akaAK wrote:No offense meant but...
I would think this comment contradicts your OP. You want high prices for the spydies in your hand but low prices for those on your wish/flip list. Good luck with that. It would seem that the market has no problem keeping prices where they need to be. I have missed out on sprints as well, that is life. Part of that is speculators locking up a portion of the sprint to hopefully profit on the reduced supply. You pay your money and you take your chances. I don't have an issue with people making money buying and selling knives in the aftermarket, I don't have an issue with Spyderco setting quantities where they feel they can make a profit. I have seen some sprints linger on the market and know that isn't good for Sypderco.

I overpaid (some would say) for a CF S90V Millie, do I care, no. It is worth it every time I use it. Can I get my money back and a profit on it now, probably. The term is "play the market" and when you play there is always the chance you can lose.

If you want to limit quantities then there will be a lot more sprints that you will miss out on. Everyone has their opinion.

Interesting thread.
I understand the confusion from my original post. I guess the point I am trying to make is that someone with limited means who LOVES Spyderco knives and would also love to try them all on, as this thread points out, has limited options. Wah, I know, we are all in the same boat. But some of us might get creative and find a means to fuel our habit. That might be buying 2 sprints on the old credit card and selling one aftermarket for a profit so we can fund the one we keep. Or we can use the "art of the trade" method and purchase a limited sprint at dollar value x to trade for a slightly more expensive model dollar value y in the trade forums. That's all that was meant. I personally don't see any difference between a "knife dealer" and a "flipper" both get paid for selling knives to people that want them at a mutually agreed upon price. Most here have probably purchased blades from flippers Anyone who looks down their nose at a "flipper", in my opinion is a bit hypocritical. Why should anyone care? What difference is it to the individual knife collector/user/flipper/investor what happens in the aftermarket. Seems like splitting hairs with some FFG S30v to me. Same goes with the user vs collector argument. Seems a bit elitist in nature. I do understand and agree that Spyderco makes their own decisions and probably doesn't have the flipper in mind when deciding how many Sprints to release. I wouldn't expect them to. However there are many out there buying, selling, and trading knives aftermarket that make up a percentage of Spyderco's profits. How large a percentage I have no idea. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just listing my thoughts. Thanks to all that responded. I like the thread.

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Postby VashHash » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:38 pm

I found out about sprints early on. Right when I got into spyderco the cf manix 2 came out. I bought one. I used it loved it so much I bought two more I wish I had bought another. When it first came out it wasn't selling too quick. I just loved the peel ply cf. I didn't even know about the cf millie. I can't say I wasn't tempted to sell one when I saw them going for 400 on the bay but I love it too much to get rid of one.

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Postby jabba359 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:46 pm

jtoler_9 wrote:I understand the confusion from my original post...
I didn't want to quote the whole explanation, but wanted to say that I agree with you on a lot of it. I admit that I have purchased some knives with the intent to hold onto them until they are worth more so that I can trade them for another higher priced knife. They weren't sprints, but discontinued knives that were widely available at extremely discounted prices. The only "backup" sprint I ever got was an XHP Manix 2, but that one still sells for not much more than I paid for it.

I think that the best way to double your money is to wait until the end of the year and then pick up discontinued knives that weren't too popular, but were kind of strange, and pay closeout prices for them. Wait two years, and you can probably sell them for a 100% profit. This is doubly true for Schempp models. I wish I would have gotten some of the ~$100 Barongs, ~$100 Khukuris, ~$100 Kris's, $110 Rock Salts, etc. when they were cleared out. Their values have certainly outpaced the stock market in recent years!
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Postby jossta » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:50 pm

OMG, if I could only get a $100 Kris. I should have most definitely bought a Barong at that price though when I saw them. At the time I didn't dig liner locks, but some how now most of my knives are righty liner or frame locks even though I'm left handed.

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Postby Pinetreebbs » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:05 pm

VashHash wrote:I found out about sprints early on. Right when I got into spyderco the cf manix 2 came out. I bought one. I used it loved it so much I bought two more I wish I had bought another. When it first came out it wasn't selling too quick. I just loved the peel ply cf. I didn't even know about the cf millie. I can't say I wasn't tempted to sell one when I saw them going for 400 on the bay but I love it too much to get rid of one.
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Postby VashHash » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:07 pm

I paid 115 each for my two kris. I traded one of those and one of the cf manix 2s for a gibson explorer. My other kris is in my pocket right now and is one of my favorite edcs along with my S90V millie. Two knives that I rarely leave home without


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