To Choil or not to Choil?

[Blerv]

I like Spyderco's medium/large knives that don't force you into the grip. If I can drop back into a traditional saber grip or choke up that's the best of both worlds. Knives like the Stretch for example.

Small knives with a deep choil, like the Lava, are pretty cool since they are usually dedicated to fine detailed tasks rather than reach.

The problem with choil knives for me is that you often sacrifice some cutting edge in a normal grip the cutout (with jimping usually) acts as parachute while cutting. You're breezing though a material and it hits that spot screeching to a halt. I even have experienced this with my Stretch but the Manix2 has much less true edge and even a more severe "stop".

What are your thoughts?

[APS]

I'd rather have no choil (Delica, Endura) than be forced into choil-only (Caly3). I do like models that allow choil or no choil b/c of the saber grip issue you mention like the Para or Stretch.

[Evil D]

I'm all about a choil. I've never experienced a hang up on the choil, but then i'm usually choked up on it, which you can argue may give better control and could be why i'm not snagging on it. I don't mind a handle that offers both grip styles as opposed to just choking up, but i feel that most of the time a handle designed that way isn't really great for either grip...the only exception i've found is the Manix 2 which felt awesome behind the choil, but then i didn't like how it felt when choked up on. The Para 2 has just enough handle for both, but i feel cramped when behind the choil. I personally don't have a big need for so many grip options...if a choil is there, 99% of the time i'll be using it so i would just assume not have an extra inch of handle length when i don't need it (ala Military). The Para 1 for example..that knife felt custom fit for my hand when choked up on. If the choil was bigger and rounder, that might just be the perfect choiled handle design.

[DeathBySnooSnoo]

I think that only small knives choils are perfectly ok. They give more room for grip and finer work, which is what you use small knives for. I think that the best choil that spyderco has ever produced is the Terzuola slipit choil.

On medium and large knives...I would be happy to never see a choil again. At least one that intrudes at all into the blade. A lot of fixed blades have a finger groove or choil for the index finger that is in the handle and that is perfectly fine. So if they moved the choil back off the blade and added extra cutting edge that would be acceptable.

[wrdwrght]

I, too, am a fan of choils. However, the pronounced stop of the jimped choil (where it meets the cutting edge on my Sages, Manix2s, Para2 and UKPK) sometimes catches line I want to cut. But better that, I say, than slicing my finger for want of a choil...

[Evil D]

When people talk about how a choil "takes away blade length", i look at it more like, part of the blade itself has become part of the handle...so it's not about losing blade length, it's about gaining handle length.

[bh49]

I strongly prefer knives with 50/50 choil. All my EDCs have it. i love it on little Kopa, I love on Persian and Navaja.

[presbo]

I, too, am a fan of choil's. I also agree 100 0/0 with David.

[unit]

My thoughts are that every knife is an island. What I mean is, I do not have a set answer to this question. Some short blades are good with a full finger choil, some are good with a 50/50, and some seem fine without any choil.

I have heard some spout that a knife with proper ergonomics will always have or not have this or that feature. That is (to me) like saying the only acceptable blade finish is satin. We are all different.

I could go on and on about handle:cutting edge length ratios also...but again there is no right answer.

Some tasks may dictate a preference that many of us might agree on....but probably not

[Blerv]

When people talk about how a choil "takes away blade length", i look at it more like, part of the blade itself has become part of the handle...so it's not about losing blade length, it's about gaining handle length.

My only problem with that is while adhering to blade carry laws they measure at pivot and not at cutting edge. I hope a cop measures at cutting edge if they ever ask for your knife though.

While other factors are at play in knife design, comparing the Cento4 (3" blade) to the Sage series (3" blade) the C4 has 2 15/16ths inches of edge while the Sage has 2 3/4ths inches.

Of course, those are pretty extreme examples but the Centofante series has never bound on materials while I have used them. The benefit to choils (again, in that instance) is the Sage line is about 200% more secure in hand.

[Evil D]

My favorite part about choils is how close my index finger is to the edge, while still being safe. When i use my Delica, it feels like my hand is a mile away from the edge. For me, the need to have both grips really only occurs in larger fixed blades where i may find myself chopping or doing something where i would want my hand further away from the edge as a safety precaution.

Choiled knives just feel more like an extension of my hand than non choiled knives. It all started with my Native...that knife literally changed my taste in knives because prior to that i never really had a choiled grip knife.

[Pete2s]

I like optional choils but not mandatory choils.

[Evil D]

My only problem with that is while adhering to blade carry laws they measure at pivot and not at cutting edge. I hope a cop measures at cutting edge if they ever ask for your knife though.

While other factors are at play in knife design, comparing the Cento4 (3" blade) to the Sage series (3" blade) the C4 has 2 15/16ths inches of edge while the Sage has 2 3/4ths inches.

Of course, those are pretty extreme examples but the Centofante series has never bound on materials while I have used them. The benefit to choils (again, in that instance) is the Sage line is about 200% more secure in hand.

That's a very good point, and in that regard i definitely see how you would sacrifice edge length for the choil. I guess for me i'm willing to give up 1/2 inch or so of edge length for the choil. I sure do love my Cento 4...but man if that knife had a choil.... :eek:

[phaust]

I like the choil on the Gayle Bradley, where the only a very little part of the blade that is part of the choil is what would be unsharpened ricasso anyway. I don't like those that take up more edge, like the Stretch or Paramilitary.

[flipe8]

All things being equal, I'd prefer not to have choils that take up blade length. Furthermore, in response to Evil D's view, I don't care for the look of a knife with a fairly large handle relative to the overall length(think Strider for example). Just my take on it, though :)

[wrdwrght]

I like optional choils but not mandatory choils.

By "mandatory", do you mean having your finger forced into the choil by a too-short handle (the Dragonfly does this to my hand), or do you mean having a choiled and non-choiled version of the same model?

[dbcad]

My thoughts are that every knife is an island. What I mean is, I do not have a set answer to this question. Some short blades are good with a full finger choil, some are good with a 50/50, and some seem fine without any choil.

I have heard some spout that a knife with proper ergonomics will always have or not have this or that feature. That is (to me) like saying the only acceptable blade finish is satin. We are all different.

I'm with Unit on this one. The diversity as it exists now feels quite nice to me :)

[Blerv]

I agree with Unit. Some knives force exceptions to preferences. For example, the Sage and Manix2 are heavily choil reliant due to the depth but still feel comfortable in either group (for my hand). The Caly3 is forced a bit more as there isn't enough real estate for a conventional grip unless you have very small hands.

That said, I love the Manix2 and Sage series. Probably some of my favorite designs because they are done so well. In a perfect world my Manix2 would be a hybrid of the Chinook handle/non-choiled blade but maybe that will be the LilTemp2? :D

[WalzAaronFFG]

For me it really comes down to the cutting task. Most of the grip issues you describe aren't necessary for the kind of tasks I do.

For me I do mostly small cutting chores where more control is better. Having a small G-10 Dfly that gives a very controlled (and choked) grip is perfect for me.

I can understand why you would want the option though. I think my Superhawk is probably one of those knives. Knives like the Sage 3, however, not so much. I think size definitely factors into it. Smaller knives are obviously better for smaller tasks and vice versa (I know I know, you can't do a big job with a little knife, but you can do a little job with a big knife).

I think Spyderco really offers a good selection of both options.

On my Caly3CF I use just the rear of the choil and try to grip my index finger farther back to give it almost a "handgun" grip where the rear of the choil is the trigger and the thumb ramp jimping is the hammer. I also keep my thumb depressed tightly against the thumb ramp jimping and it gives me a bit less of that "choked" grip feeling.

It isn't as comfortable as the intended (forced) grip, but it works well enough IMHO

[gull wing]

On small knives like the Urban, Cat, etc, choils are a must. I can get a firm grip.
On larger knives, no choil (sometimes) works, I get more cutting edge. The Endura comes to mind, so does the large Sebenza. However most knives don't make me happy if they don't have a choil. As in the Tenacious it bites me when I close it, a choil would solve this.
So, more in favor of choils than not.