chuck_roxas45 wrote:I just want to see a resolution to this issue. My "delicate sensibilities" can't stand the continual talk with no action.
And yes, I did watch your vids.
I'm ready for a resolution too. I want to see what M4 at it's true potential can do since most people hold it in high regard. My life at this stage just doesn't allow me to handle everything that needs attention right away.
Hopefully after I send them out I'll have my answer quickly. I reay hope they don't tell me there's nothing wrong with them. If that happens I'll be truly disappointed in M4 steel.
CrimsonTideShooter wrote:I'm ready for a resolution too. I want to see what M4 at it's true potential can do since most people hold it in high regard. My life at this stage just doesn't allow me to handle everything that needs attention right away.
Hopefully after I send them out I'll have my answer quickly. I reay hope they don't tell me there's nothing wrong with them. If that happens I'll be truly disappointed in M4 steel.
chuck_roxas45 wrote:I just want to see a resolution to this issue. My "delicate sensibilities" can't stand the continual talk with no action.
And yes, I did watch your vids. For a guy with zero free time you sure take a lot of time with making vids cutting cardboard and rebeveling on the edge pro.
What are you talking about? I've only made 2 videos, one was 5 minutes and the other was 20 seconds, and neither have anything to do with the edge pro. You have your facts wrong.
I don't have to explain how I spend my time. Knives aren't my first priority all day every day. Don't like my threads? Don't click on them.
btb27823 wrote:Talked with Charlene and sent my GB in for testing on Tue. They will do hardness and perhaps edge retention testing depending on what they find. Will let you all know what I hear from them. My date code is KJ and I have the same rolling/chipping/poor edge retention issues as ChrimsonTideShooter. Arrgh!
Update: My knife was sent to CS on Tuesday, March 29th. Sent it priority mail, so it should have gotten there in a couple days. Had a couple quick conversations with CS and they seemed really backed up. At first, they didn't know if the knife was in the 'big pile of unopened boxes' of CS incoming, nor did they know when they could get a look at it. Called a couple more times, but was not able to reach anyone in CS, so I left messages asking for an update. (Charlynn or Charlene) called a couple days ago. She said my GB is on Eric's desk and he was going to have both hardness and CATRA testing done this week. She expected to get back with me with results and resolution this week. As of today, Thursday, no news yet. Getting close to an answer. Will post as soon as I get news.
btb27823 wrote:Update: My knife was sent to CS on Tuesday, March 29th. Sent it priority mail, so it should have gotten there in a couple days. Had a couple quick conversations with CS and they seemed really backed up. At first, they didn't know if the knife was in the 'big pile of unopened boxes' of CS incoming, nor did they know when they could get a look at it. Called a couple more times, but was not able to reach anyone in CS, so I left messages asking for an update. (Charlynn or Charlene) called a couple days ago. She said my GB is on Eric's desk and he was going to have both hardness and CATRA testing done this week. She expected to get back with me with results and resolution this week. As of today, Thursday, no news yet. Getting close to an answer. Will post as soon as I get news.
Thank you much for keeping us posted. Was your date code the same as mine or close to it?
CrimsonTideShooter wrote:What are you talking about? I've only made 2 videos, one was 5 minutes and the other was 20 seconds, and neither have anything to do with the edge pro. You have your facts wrong.
I don't have to explain how I spend my time. Knives aren't my first priority all day every day. Don't like my threads? Don't click on them.
Whose sensibilities are delicate now? :p
You are the one who continued with this and kept on saying you were going to send your GB's in for I dunno how long now.
You mentioned you have zero time to send the knives in but yet you mentioned in your thread at the other place that you rebeveled each time that you got chipping. And managed to cut cardboard again. And make vids. And upload them. And embed them. And managed to accumulate 1,196 posts since October 2010...
Hmm for a person with zero time...
But whatever.....
And to keep this on topic...
I too am waiting for btb27823's resolution since you still haven't found time to send yours in.
jheredia88 wrote:Did anyone find out what was up with the steel? I'm wondering if I have the same problem. Mine seems to roll pretty easily, but maybe it's normal?
Can you clarify? What were you cutting and was the edge inspected with a jewelers loupe or similar?
CPM-M4 is tough hard stuff. It shouldn't be rolling under normal circumstances.
I was cutting mainly cardboard and also some plastic from hanger sign for the size (I work in a retail store so I figured I could test on that lol) I didn't really cut much, maybe the equivalent of maybe one box and a few of those signs, like 5. Also I cut one very hard zip-tie. I noticed the edge was pretty rolled all over, couldn't cut paper at all. Is this normal of m4 or maybe the plastic was too much? It was very sharp out of the box.
Darn...I read these 3 pages and the guy sent his 2 GB's in April 2011 and never posted back the results. I might PM him to see what happened and post back.
I am also very interested to know if a conclusion was reached... I had a similar experience.
My first impression of the GB and M4 was that it rolled easily and lost its fine edge after only a handful of cuts on cardboard. I don't know if this was a result of the specific corrugated board I cut, or if it was just the factory edge.
This is the long version: (sorry for the wall of text :) )
I got my GB in Nov 2011, date code GK. When I first got the knife, I saw that the factory edge had a flat spot, so I steeled it on a 1200 grit ceramic hone, which easily fixed it. So I'm pretty sure there was no wire edge. I shaved hair against the growth easily after that.
Later that day I broke down an apple box (2 ply corrugated cardboard). These were my notes at the time (I always keep sharpening notes):
"First cut test - apple box (with steeled factory edge). Did approximately 10-15 cuts, some hard push-cuts, to break down box. Did not try to shred box, I was just separating it along the main sections to flatten it. M4 lost its hair popping edge very quickly. I can see some big flat spots on the edge, especially on the edge near the tang where I push-cut some sections of double cardboard, and also on the belly. Quite disappointing... It would still shave somewhat after this, but not cleanly. Maybe it was the factory edge ??? Will have to see after the first re-profiling."
Directly after this, I saw the CrimsonTide video of his bad edge retention, and it seemed very similar to my own experience.
I decided to re-profiled it on the Edge Pro, with a 30 deg incl back bevel, and a 40 deg incl micro bevel. Finished on the 1000 grit, and steeled lightly on the 1200 grit ceramic to any remove burr. Again, it was hair popping sharp.
I decided to do another cut test, with the same apple box as before, as it was now in sections. This time I went on to shred it. The following were my notes:
"Second cut test - apple box (after re-profiling). M4 did much better this time. I did approximately 120 medium length (ave of 10 cm) cuts on 2 ply, and could see only 2 or 3 tiny flat spots on the edge. It still cut paper, but sometimes hung up on those flat spots. Even after 150 cuts, it still sliced cardboard easily. I suspect the steel will approach its best edge retention after a few sharpenings. Maybe the very edge got a little heat damage during factory sharpening? Two passes each side on ceramic hone brought it back to hair popping sharp. M4 really feels soft and sharpens very easily, similar to CPM-3V. Unlike a high vanadium steel like CTS-20CP, which feels much harder".
I know this is not a very scientific or objective test. Initially I was a bit disappointed with M4, because I was expecting performance close to 20CP. After the re-profiling, I kinda made peace with the improved results and forgot about it. Since then I haven't been using it hard, and it hasn't seen much sharpening, except one or two light honings on the ceramic.
I'm not trying to bash the GB or M4, just posting some comments I had after my initial experience with it, which seems similar to what is described in this thread.
I hope someone can shed some light... :confused:
Hans Favourite Spydies: Military, PM2, Shaman, UKPK Others: Victorinox Pioneer, CRK L Sebenza 31, CRK L Inkosi
Yeah that's what I was thinking lol. Basically I was cutting carboard and plastic, from the size signs on hangers in retail stores ( I work at one). I wasn't really much, maybe the equivalent of one box and about 5 of those signs. Also one very hard zip-tie. It couldn't cut paper after that at all, the edge seems really damaged. Is that how m4 normally is or maybe the plastic was too hard? It was very sharp out of the box, I just got it about 2 weeks ago.
Brock O Lee wrote:
I decided to re-profiled it on the Edge Pro, with a 30 deg incl back bevel, and a 40 deg incl micro bevel. Finished on the 1000 grit, and steeled lightly on the 1200 grit ceramic to any remove burr. Again, it was hair popping sharp.
I decided to do another cut test, with the same apple box as before, as it was now in sections. This time I went on to shred it. The following were my notes:
"Second cut test - apple box (after re-profiling). M4 did much better this time. I did approximately 120 medium length (ave of 10 cm) cuts on 2 ply, and could see only 2 or 3 tiny flat spots on the edge. It still cut paper, but sometimes hung up on those flat spots. Even after 150 cuts, it still sliced cardboard easily. I suspect the steel will approach its best edge retention after a few sharpenings. Maybe the very edge got a little heat damage during factory sharpening? Two passes each side on ceramic hone brought it back to hair popping sharp. M4 really feels soft and sharpens very easily, similar to CPM-3V. Unlike a high vanadium steel like CTS-20CP, which feels much harder".
I hope someone can shed some light... :confused:
That makes the most sense of this issue I have read thus far! Thanks!
Brock O Lee wrote:I am also very interested to know if a conclusion was reached... I had a similar experience.
My first impression of the GB and M4 was that it rolled easily and lost its fine edge after only a handful of cuts on cardboard. I don't know if this was a result of the specific corrugated board I cut, or if it was just the factory edge.
This is the long version: (sorry for the wall of text :) )
I got my GB in Nov 2011, date code GK. When I first got the knife, I saw that the factory edge had a flat spot, so I steeled it on a 1200 grit ceramic hone, which easily fixed it. So I'm pretty sure there was no wire edge. I shaved hair against the growth easily after that.
Later that day I broke down an apple box (2 ply corrugated cardboard). These were my notes at the time (I always keep sharpening notes):
"First cut test - apple box (with steeled factory edge). Did approximately 10-15 cuts, some hard push-cuts, to break down box. Did not try to shred box, I was just separating it along the main sections to flatten it. M4 lost its hair popping edge very quickly. I can see some big flat spots on the edge, especially on the edge near the tang where I push-cut some sections of double cardboard, and also on the belly. Quite disappointing... It would still shave somewhat after this, but not cleanly. Maybe it was the factory edge ??? Will have to see after the first re-profiling."
Directly after this, I saw the CrimsonTide video of his bad edge retention, and it seemed very similar to my own experience.
I decided to re-profiled it on the Edge Pro, with a 30 deg incl back bevel, and a 40 deg incl micro bevel. Finished on the 1000 grit, and steeled lightly on the 1200 grit ceramic to any remove burr. Again, it was hair popping sharp.
I decided to do another cut test, with the same apple box as before, as it was now in sections. This time I went on to shred it. The following were my notes:
"Second cut test - apple box (after re-profiling). M4 did much better this time. I did approximately 120 medium length (ave of 10 cm) cuts on 2 ply, and could see only 2 or 3 tiny flat spots on the edge. It still cut paper, but sometimes hung up on those flat spots. Even after 150 cuts, it still sliced cardboard easily. I suspect the steel will approach its best edge retention after a few sharpenings. Maybe the very edge got a little heat damage during factory sharpening? Two passes each side on ceramic hone brought it back to hair popping sharp. M4 really feels soft and sharpens very easily, similar to CPM-3V. Unlike a high vanadium steel like CTS-20CP, which feels much harder".
I know this is not a very scientific or objective test. Initially I was a bit disappointed with M4, because I was expecting performance close to 20CP. After the re-profiling, I kinda made peace with the improved results and forgot about it. Since then I haven't been using it hard, and it hasn't seen much sharpening, except one or two light honings on the ceramic.
I'm not trying to bash the GB or M4, just posting some comments I had after my initial experience with it, which seems similar to what is described in this thread.
I hope someone can shed some light... :confused:
Well I think that you might have had your expectations of the steel a little high. While M4 has toughness and edge holding that is far above S30V and the usual steels that we see, it doesn't have the edge holding of 20CP or S90V. Nor does it have the toughness of 3V. But it IMO it is just a really good all round steel that exceeds what we often see on production knives.
Mine has done all kinds of tasks and come out golden. Slicing open 15 bags each of gravel and sand, in the same day notched pressure treated 4x4 posts, cut heavy binding that was securing a skid of patio stones...and after all that cutting with the edge meeting rocks and sand and that hard wood, it was still very sharp and required nothing but a very light pass on a strop and was shaving sharp.
I too would like to hear what happened with all this.
Regardless I got my GB in just the other day, marked GK. I realize cardboard is non standard, but I did some cutting through "average" cardboard with some contaminants. Similar testing with S30V revealed pretty rapid edge degradation. Factory edge on the GB (which was shaving sharp but not terribly refined) did 110 cuts exactly, averaging probably 10 inches per cut. When I was done every part of the edge was hair shaving capable although just barely. Enough force in the scrape was required you certainly wouldn't have wanted to try it on your face. Examination under a loupe revealed no rolling at all, and not really any chipping either. You could feel, with your fingernail, the edge was rougher but the few tiny nicks in the edge I noticed I believe were irregularities from the factory edge. Regardless the performance was really leagues apart from S30V. Stropping on leather loaded with 1.5 micron diamond compound would have brought it back to hair popping sharp in seconds.
Sharpening was first on monocrystalline diamond stones then moved to ceramic and finished off with soft-backed lapping film. Hardness wise it felt softer than ZDP 189 (spyderco HT) but not by much. It felt relatively comparable to 20CP and S90V actually. (again all spyderco HTs) It was dramatically different from S30V for example.
Anyway could the people who sent their knives in PLEASE update us?
DeathBySnooSnoo wrote:Well I think that you might have had your expectations of the steel a little high.
Possibly... :)
My expectations were set by the Ankerson steel rankings, where M4 was ranked in Cat 2, one level down from S90v and 20cp. So I knew from the start that it would not have the same edge holding than 20cp, but I was surprised by the amount of edge rolling I saw.
I speculated that maybe Ankerson had an earlier model of the GB, with the higher heat threat, hence the excellent Cat 2 result. But I dont know.
Maybe he can chime in on this...
Hans Favourite Spydies: Military, PM2, Shaman, UKPK Others: Victorinox Pioneer, CRK L Sebenza 31, CRK L Inkosi
That means M4 by his testing still is on par or beats what, 90% of the blade steels on the market? When you throw in the relative toughness (compared to say S30v) it's not shabby.
I hate to say it but most people are probably not going to tell the difference between two heat treats. At the least I wouldn't shy clear of certain model run dates.
My expectations were set by the Ankerson steel rankings, where M4 was ranked in Cat 2, one level down from S90v and 20cp. So I knew from the start that it would not have the same edge holding than 20cp, but I was surprised by the amount of edge rolling I saw.
I speculated that maybe Ankerson had an earlier model of the GB, with the higher heat threat, hence the excellent Cat 2 result. But I dont know.
Maybe he can chime in on this...
I think Ankerson has said that the difference between categories can be quite a bit when it comes to performance. But he can state that better than me that is for sure.
It could be that he has an early one, which I do. My date code is AJ.
That means M4 by his testing still is on par or beats what, 90% of the blade steels on the market? When you throw in the relative toughness (compared to say S30v) it's not shabby.
I hate to say it but most people are probably not going to tell the difference between two heat treats. At the least I wouldn't shy clear of certain model run dates.
Yes I agree...
Also, individual experiences are all very subjective, and I realise we are probably not going to pin this down on a forum while sitting on different sides of the planet :) Too many variables could be at play - differences in steel chemistry, heat treats, edge finishes, cardboard and contaminants etc etc.
Thats why I am happy with my GB as is. After I re-profiled, the 'problem' seemed to have improved a lot, so I'm not too worried. Even if I were not happy, it doesnt make financial sense to ship it back and make a huge thing of this. I only brought this up because other people seemed to have experienced similar issues, and I remebered I made some notes just after I saw the same issues.
But I do hope I hear from the OP, and maybe get an RC value, even if its just to satisfy my own curiosity and broaden my limited experience.
Hans Favourite Spydies: Military, PM2, Shaman, UKPK Others: Victorinox Pioneer, CRK L Sebenza 31, CRK L Inkosi
