thanks for your insight, mike. i do love seeing the evolution of knives and its a really cool concept to work from.
i just didnt want to ask: harpy style handle (love g 10, frn, and aluminum like on salsa), about 3/16" wider towards "neck" of handle. millitary/ para 2 type blade shape 3" - 3.5" long . no safety tip. available in SE and PE :)
or maybe a STANDARD 2
also would love to see a super hawk/leaf type handle w/o the choil or even comprimise at a military size choil.
Hard to imagine, I know, but my post came off a lot more harshly than intended. :o
Not a fan of the 50/50 choil, or an extra choil added forward of the handle scales. Some people really like them, but I was simply giving my opinion on the matter rather than meaning that I see any lack of design prowess or ergonomic determination by the Spyderco team. If I didn't like my Spydies a whole bunch, I certainly wouldn't be here in this board.
I just have this thing for "3-inch blade" meaning "as close to 3 inches from scale to tip of cutting steel as humanly possible". I like to do a lot of my cutting close to the handle with a rocking press-cut out of habit from chopping far too many vegetables in various restaurant kitchens and I find that my hand fits most knife handles that are designed with a full grip in mind. The extra bit of choil some blades have just feels wonky to me when I'm cutting a side branch and leaves off the stick my son has picked up to do his swashbuckler thing with the base of the cutting edge the extra distance out from where I'm pressing down.
Spyderco does a great job with their knives and I'm glad that they have some variety to keep even overbearing b***heads like myself happy. :)
I will say I agree...a 3 inch blade should mean nearly a 3 inch cutting edge. Not a 2.5 inch cutting edge because the choil takes up that much of the blade.
There are times when a choil is useful, but I think that if anything, the blade should be extended to make a 3 inch cutting edge rather than a 3 inch blade with a 2.5 inch edge. Or maybe a few more designs like the Stretch...or even better, a few more options to the Stretch...maybe a nicer Carbon Fiber or a G10 version.
dialex wrote:Fortunately Sal is crazy enough himself to spoil us, like making lefty (and undented) models for Paul or letting me create my own knife from scratch :D
I want my Junior! :)
Michael Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith."
-Alexis de Tocqueville
can we get any insight from spyderco R and D about why the leaf and 50/50 choil have become to prevalent? i trust their testing and would like to know what results of what testing etc.
i am not completely against 50/50's they certainly have their place. i dont think anything should be abolished from the line... BUT i feel like i have to buy "old" designs ( i.e. delica/ endura/ salts/ harpy / OLD police (dont get me started!!!) etc). to get the handles i like. now if we really get to it all of these blades (harpy amended) have similar blades. so its almost 2 sides to the line up older/ newer to me
im not trying to run it into the ground. im just looking for more discussion on evolution of designs and the in-house designer's (i assume sal and eric) personal tastes?
maybe i should check out a timeline of model releases after school tonight to see the real change from the older style models to newer.
chuck buck wrote:can we get any insight from spyderco R and D about why the leaf and 50/50 choil have become to prevalent? i trust their testing and would like to know what results of what testing etc.
i am not completely against 50/50's they certainly have their place. i dont think anything should be abolished from the line... BUT i feel like i have to buy "old" designs ( i.e. delica/ endura/ salts/ harpy / OLD police (dont get me started!!!) etc). to get the handles i like. now if we really get to it all of these blades (harpy amended) have similar blades. so its almost 2 sides to the line up older/ newer to me
im not trying to run it into the ground. im just looking for more discussion on evolution of designs and the in-house designer's (i assume sal and eric) personal tastes?
maybe i should check out a timeline of model releases after school tonight to see the real change from the older style models to newer.
My guess would be that one factor is the input from dealers and from users who attend knife shows and frequent the forums. Know for certain that the UKPK was primarily the result of input from users on a British knife forum.
Market research may be another factor. The Tenacious and its siblings are the first "all edge" models designed in house. From what Sal once said, the decision to make them that way was that Spyderco's market research showed that the folks buying knives in their price range prefer that configuration.
The early models you name have a fair amount of exposed tang which reduces usable edge length, but serves no useful purpose. For any given OAL, changing that to a 50/50 choil causes no greater reduction in edge length but create for more usable grip length on the handle. Many people would consider that an improvement.
I do understand your frustration. Personally I lament the relative dearth of models with stainless bolsters and natural material scales.
My optimal index finger placement on the grip is about 3/4" from the beginning of the edge (I measure on my delica 1) The Delica was my first Spyderco so this is what I've grown naturally accustommed to; this is where my hand feels most comfortable gripping a knife. With a 50/50 choil, like on the Caly 3, if I place my index finger in the choil it's about 1/4" from the beginning of the edge (which feels uncomfortably close to me) and if I grip behind the choil, it placed my index finger about 1 1/4" from the edge (feels too far and out of control).
I say all that to explain why I prefer knives without choils (50/50 choils or other partial choils including like on the military or paramilitary models). I can understand not wanting to "waste" blade length with unused portions, hence the choil, but I think it tends to limit grip placement. That's why I prefer models like the delica, tasman, etc. That's why I also LOVE the chokwe - Spyderco did an outstanding job with this one.
I guess my ideal knife has about a 3 to 3.5 " blade length, no choil, and I don't think it matters to me what the blade material or handle material is. I like VG-10 and S30V, I like G10 and FRN both. I've actually never bought a carbon fiber handle knife, probably because of increased cost. The most important things for me are grip and blade geometry, that's why I tend to be so vocal about not liking 50/50 choils. But I mean no offense to anybody, and that certainly is NOT a criticism against spyderco. That is also why I'm so excited about the new Yojimbo 2 coming out - no choil, the ergonomics look fantastic, its a wharncliff blade, and its very close to my ideal blade length.
The Deacon wrote:The Tenacious and its siblings are the first "all edge" models designed in house.
Wasn't the Lil' Temp designed in house? It was before i got into Spyderco so I don't know first hand but I assumed it was.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
The Mentaculous wrote:Chokwe is in-house. Designed by Sal.
Not sure why y'all say this. IIRC, Clovisc got them to make this one based on an old, old African knife by this name (and it looks like that knife too). At best, it could be called a 're-make' or 're-design' of an older, already proven design. :D :D :D
18 's and counting so far... Current Inventory:C14SBK Rescue SE - C14SBL Rescue SE - C14PBK Rescue FG PE - C14SBK Rescue FG SE - C10PSGRWBK Endura USN CE Emerson Opener/Black Blade - LBK3HB Ladybug Hawkbill SE - C12SGY Matriarch SE G10 modded - C78PSBK Native 3 SE - C78PBK Native 3 PE - C41SBK Native 4 SE - C41PBBK Native 4 Black Blade PE - C41PSBBK Native 4 Black Blade SE - C77PYL SpyderHawk H1 PE - C106PYL Tasman Salt PE - C122GP Tenacious SE - BY22SBK Meadowlark Hawkbill SE - LGRP3HB USN Ladybug Hawkbill PE - LGRS3HB USN Ladybug Hawkbill SE
There might be a practical purpose for the cutting edge not coming all the way to the handle on a folder. Whatever you're cutting with that part of the edge might get into the rotating and locking parts of the knife.
In a folder I think it's preferable to have a 1/4,3/8 or even 1/2 inch full tang before the handle is reached. The Urban is "perfect" with it's choils, so is the Balance, the large Lum is "perfect" without. The Bradley and Stretch are also wondeful with only the thumb ramp on top.
I'll leave this thread with my opinion that there is no problem with diversity in the Spyderco house. If you look for it you will find it.
Charlie
" Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler."
[CENTER]"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"[/CENTER]
spyderco has some of the most interesting, unique and varied lines out of any large production knife company. they do all of this with good pricing, quality, and customer service.
I don't really get the "choils reduce cutting edge" argument. These models were designed with choils, they never had the extra length to begin with. Its not as if Sal said, "Lets slap a choil on that puppy!" after it was a finished design. If you want maximum edge, maybe buy a bigger knife.
I like choils. For me they feel like the most secure way to hold a knife. I also like lots of knives without them. I think there's a good mix of both right now.
The Deacon wrote:The early models you name have a fair amount of exposed tang which reduces usable edge length, but serves no useful purpose. For any given OAL, changing that to a 50/50 choil causes no greater reduction in edge length but create for more usable grip length on the handle. Many people would consider that an improvement.
That exposed tang does allow easy one hand closing of the knife and makes it a bit safer by keeping the exposed edge away from fingers. The Cento's lack that little "wasted space" and demand more respect when closing. Same with the Tenacious family.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
Eric and I are always involved in R&D. Mostly doing our own testing and commuicating with our customers on forums.
The main advantages of a choil are "choking up" and the "safety" factor of the index finger stopping the blade should a "fail" occur.
But we'll make different "styles" and price ranges of knives as our customers request. We've found that as knife afi's learn more about knives, their desires and values change, kinda like grade school. We try to serve the different preferences.
thank you sal- could i ask what your your personal likes in a knife design? obviously you and your son design with testing and customer demand in mind... but which designs do you consider perfect for YOU? thank you for taking time to respond
I like them all and carry them all at one time or another. I usually have a Ladybug with me. When on the mountain, I often carry a Military Model. I try to carry knives that are legal for where I am.
's and counting so far... 
