Which US stainless steel would you replace S30V with?

[catamount]

If Sal asked you to choose a US made stainless steel to replace S30V in Golden and Taiwan models, what would it be?

[Blerv]

Cts-xhp

Simply because similar enough and a different maker. Likely a reason they would be switching anyways (eg: gin1 to bd1)

[The Mentaculous]

That's a tough one..I like XHP, but it's not powdered and not nearly as wear resistant I believe. If CTS-20CP became more available and a similar price, that would be an incredible replacement (though I haven't used it, I'd assume the performance is great).

Also, if other CPM ones are possible, then S35VN would be great. I heard something about it being more available because Vanadium is in short supply and Niobium is a good substitute.

[Stephen]

I don't know how expensive or hard it is to work with but I'd go for CTS-204P aka M390 aka 20CV. It works really great for the XM-18. Lime green 204P Manix 2 sprint anyone? :D



I believe that Sal said they're going to use CTS-204P in an upcoming mule too.

From the bombshell thread:

M390 and CTS-204P mule teams

"We have a "Mule Team" run curently being finished up.

Uddeholm makes some very good steels.

M390 is the basic chemistry for 20CV (Latrobe). But Uddeholm's "version".

We're also planning to use Carpenter's "version" (CTS-204P) of the same steel.

Each foundry has their secret "tweaking" of these formulas. Their study will be fun for steel-heads.

It appears as though the steel foundries have "discovered" the knife industry in the past few years. Probably partially due to the downturn in the auto industry, which was their main "bread and butter", and I would guess partially from observing Crucible's succes.

The downturn was not a good thing for our foundries, but the the new opportunities for blade steels is a good thing for the Knife industry.

They have also expressed interest in providing the smaller amounts necessary for Mule Team runs. They feel the Mule Team is a good path to get some of their steels into the market.

We had plans to use many of these new steels in our Mule Team models, but at 4 per year, it will take years to "explore" them all. So some of the steels will be used in knives as well as Mule Teams.

sal"


http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showp ... ostcount=6

[The Mentaculous]

I don't know how expensive or hard it is to work with but I'd go for CTS-204P aka M390 aka 20CV. It works really great for the XM-18.
I believe that Sal said they're going to use CTS-204P in an upcoming mule too.

Oooh I forgot about that one. I was thinking about M390 but I knew it was limited to US steels. That's probably the closest to s30v from Carpenter's offerings, although it does have significantly more chromium.

[JacksonKnives]

If the replacement is because of Crucible's inability to supply, then I'd be happy with Carpenter's XHP. If CTS-20CP were possible without bringing up the price (factoring the cost of grinding) more than 10%, I would say yes without a second thought.

If Crucible's line is still viable, but S30V is the only variety unavailable, I'd go for CPM-M4, (though I realize this would probably not be a popular decision with the unwashed rust-fearing masses.) or CPM-154.

S30V is popular for a reason. Price : performance-wise, Spyderco hasn't been able to beat it, so unless there's something about Carpenter's offerings I'm not aware of (I assume all except BD1 are more expensive) I don't expect to see any changes.

TBH, since heat treat is by far the biggest variable when you're comparing similar steels, I'm confident in whatever steel Spyderco chooses for a given knife. I'll buy premium steels when I can afford them, but I don't get bothered by what's in a full-run model.

[Carlos]

As an incremental upgrade, S35VN seems a realistic choice. I like S30V and would love an improved version.

Carpenter's CTS B75 might be suitable -- certainly worth a trial.

[HotSoup]

S90V

/thread

:)

[yowzer]

D2, preferably the CPM version.

[JNewell]

S90V and M390 are in a different price class than S30V, so I doubt that's commercially viable at this time.

Is it clear that Spyderco needs to replace S30V? S30V is probably the best steel that gets no respect at all from consumers. That may be all that's needed to kill it, eventually, but if it is properly HTed (as Spyderco does), it is a very fine choice.

[npueppke]

I haven't found anything I like better than S30V, but I don't have any experience with the really super steels or with Carpenter's steels. If the two Carpenter variants turn out to be good though I'm all for putting that steel into more knives.

If Crucible can't/is going to stop supplying S30V, why don't they sell the 'patent' or 'recipie' or whatever it is to another company?

[catamount]

What I dislike about S30V is that it loses a fine (hair popping) edge fairly quickly, compared to VG-10. It may hold a working edge for a long time, but a fine edge is what I want.

If S35VN holds a fine edge longer, while still retaining the other desirable qualities of S30V, then it would be a nice step up.

Super steels like S90V would be cost prohibitive. Which ones are are around the same price as S30V?

[chuck_roxas45]

Why not CTS-XHP?

[catamount]

Why not CTS-XHP?

Good question. I'm liking what I see, as far as fine edge retention. Is it significantly more expensive than S30V? What are the trade-offs vs. S30V?

[psychophipps]

I would switch to D2 as well. Holds an edge well, much lower cost, plenty wear resistant, and semi-stainless.

[chuck_roxas45]

Good question. I'm liking what I see, as far as fine edge retention. Is it significantly more expensive than S30V? What are the trade-offs vs. S30V?

I hope mastiff and some other guys chime in soon.

[araneae]

I don't know if it exists, but does Carpenter have a VG-10 equivalent? Seems like a good idea to me. Seems you can't just download the CTS steel pdf without signing up for the mailing list and a print copy.

[Blerv]

Good question. I'm liking what I see, as far as fine edge retention. Is it significantly more expensive than S30V? What are the trade-offs vs. S30V?

Sal has referred to it as a stainless equivalent to D2. Some folks have elevated it to a mystical space metal.

Unless Sal updates his opinion I'm inclined to go with that. D2 is close enough in characteristics to s30v to be compared. Not the "same", just similar.

Based on pricing of the manix2 sprint it seems a touch cheaper than s30v.

[dsmegst]

That's a tough one..I like XHP, but it's not powdered and not nearly as wear resistant I believe. If CTS-20CP became more available and a similar price, that would be an incredible replacement (though I haven't used it, I'd assume the performance is great).

Also, if other CPM ones are possible, then S35VN would be great. I heard something about it being more available because Vanadium is in short supply and Niobium is a good substitute.

I thought CTS-XHP was a powder metal. Isn't "Micro-Melt" Carpenter's version of the CPM process?

In any case, I really like the CTS-XHP. CTS-20CP would be great if the price isn't too high like S90v.

S30v:
Carbon 1.45%, Chromium 14.00%, Vanadium 4.00%, Molybdenum 2.00%,
S35VN:
Carbon 1.40%, Chromium 14.00%, Vanadium 3.00%, Molybdenum 2.00%, Niobium 0.50%
XHP:
Carbon 1.60%, Chromium 16.00%, Vanadium 0.45%, Molybdenum 0.80%, Manganese 0.50%, Silicon 0.40%, Nickel 0.35%
S90v:
Carbon 2.30%, Chromium 14.00%, Vanadium 9.00%, Molybdenum 1.00%,
CTS-20CP:
Carbon 2.25%, Chromium 12.80%, Vanadium 9.25%, Molybdenum 1.30%, Silicon 0.90%, Manganese 0.50%, Sulfur 0.030

[Handwrecker]

I'd choose M4 in a heart beat. Tougher. easier to sharpen, holds an edge longer, finer grained, and higher hardness.

And I'm also pretty sure XHP is a powdered steel.