Hey guys,
I waded through the other thread talking about grips and noticed that there was some interest in a fixed blade design. We have spoken with Spyderco about having them produce ShivWorks knives and so far have only looked at options, without commitment.
If you guys are interested in seeing either ShivWorks knives produced by Spyderco or a new FB collaboration between ShivWorks and Spyderco then I'm all ears and I know that Sal is too.
Please post your thoughts here. I'd really rather this not devolve into a comparison of methods, so if you mention application please relate that to design.
Thanks!
Spydie/ShivWorks FB Collaboration
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Joe Talmadge
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Hey bud, good to see you! My quick thought, captured in the zillions of other postings, is that as much as I like the no-compromise RGEI designs of the P'kal and Disciple (I own both), it'd be good to see a small fixed blade that sings in RGEI, but is still very usable in all other grips... which, I think, means more neutral handles, supported by a sheath that can be configured to let me draw into any grip I want. The handle part seems to be very do-able -- as I mentioned, I feel A-F dagger style handles work well in every grip, and the Kalista seems to have found a solution also. The sheath may require a bit more thought...
I'm in. I'd love to get a Shivworks design clinchpick - had one, sold it, regretted it. For RGEI / SD I like what Joe is suggesting, but you guys are the experts so I won't specify any particular configuration. "Sings" in RGEI sounds good. He did not (here anyway) specify what small means - I like small FB with OAL less than 7-7.5" because I tend to pocket carry.
Hope something develops.
p.s. SN -nice to see you posting here again. Always found your posts to be very insightful.
Hope something develops.
p.s. SN -nice to see you posting here again. Always found your posts to be very insightful.
Joe Talmadge wrote:..., it'd be good to see a small fixed blade that sings in RGEI, but is still very usable in all other grips... which, I think, means more neutral handles, supported by a sheath that can be configured to let me draw into any grip I want. The handle part seems to be very do-able -- .....
I have recently acquired a couple Spyderco P'Kal's and absolutely love the design and the overall quality (and hope to start training in Shivwork method soon). I would love to see some sort of EDC fixed blade Shivworks design...as I was actually thinking about having a custom done...but, the long wait and custom price is a drag, but doable.
I think a RGEI sounds like the ticket, and am now keeping my fingers crossed. :D
I think a RGEI sounds like the ticket, and am now keeping my fingers crossed. :D
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psychophipps
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I would love to see a Spyderco/Shivworks collab inverted edge fixed blade! That said, I would still be quite happy with the original Rinaldi designs coming out as production models as well.
As for design, I think that being good for the Shivworks Pikal methodology, forward grip-edge in, and cutting-based methods like MCS's Inverted Edge Tactics would be a real bonus. A relatively neutral handle so it can also be used with standard edge-out methodologies if you drop it in a scuffle and simply have to use it how it ends up in your hand.
You would likely have to go with "Does it all fairly well" rather than "Runs one thing like a track meet" to meet all of these criteria, however.
As for design, I think that being good for the Shivworks Pikal methodology, forward grip-edge in, and cutting-based methods like MCS's Inverted Edge Tactics would be a real bonus. A relatively neutral handle so it can also be used with standard edge-out methodologies if you drop it in a scuffle and simply have to use it how it ends up in your hand.
You would likely have to go with "Does it all fairly well" rather than "Runs one thing like a track meet" to meet all of these criteria, however.
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psychophipps
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I am in 100% agreement, sir. :)
My only concern with bringing in Shivworks into the mix is whether this is conducive to making a cost-effective end-product. Their inclusion for their known skill in this regard will have to be off-set by their very strong preference for S30V which will dramatically increase materials and machining costs as well as adding licensing fees.
My preferences for a new inverted-edge design:
*$125-175 MSRP
*Works well for all inverted-edge methodologies
*Blade length of 3" from the end of the finger choil or handle scales to the blade tip for maximum jurisdictional legality where fixed blades are allowed for EDC
*Reasonable steel to keep costs down
*Lack of a needle-point tip as it's completely unnecessary for effective thrusting
*Textured handle in the style of either the G10 of the PPT or Volcano FRN.
My only concern with bringing in Shivworks into the mix is whether this is conducive to making a cost-effective end-product. Their inclusion for their known skill in this regard will have to be off-set by their very strong preference for S30V which will dramatically increase materials and machining costs as well as adding licensing fees.
My preferences for a new inverted-edge design:
*$125-175 MSRP
*Works well for all inverted-edge methodologies
*Blade length of 3" from the end of the finger choil or handle scales to the blade tip for maximum jurisdictional legality where fixed blades are allowed for EDC
*Reasonable steel to keep costs down
*Lack of a needle-point tip as it's completely unnecessary for effective thrusting
*Textured handle in the style of either the G10 of the PPT or Volcano FRN.
I would be interested in a collab like I said in the other thread definitely needs a handle tha feels good in rgei and front grip edge up. Kinda like a marriage between the clinch and disciple. The clinched disciple pik. Or cdp for short. All jokes aside I would like something very nuetral but not to the point that it would hinder the application of reverse edge in or forward edge up. I find I can use the pkal folder in any grip but it excels at rgei. Which it was deigned for. Blade shape. Thinl maybe wharne cliffe or slight hawk bill like the orginal folder. Something that has a fine tip for penetration of course spyderco has enough fixed blades for forward edge down/reverse edge out that I don't feel it needs to be. Catered to those grips. As far as length I guess around the 3 to 3.5 3.5 being legal in more areas. Smooth g10 preferably rounded off or a slightly textured micarta. Somewhere to lock ones thumb in or leave it rounded.
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Dr. Snubnose
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Awww...Don't know how I missed this post for so long....Need to get stronger glasses for sure....Ay SouthNarc, glad you started this thread, very happy that Sal is on board with an open ear, and just maybe we can get a nice collab between Spyderco and Shivworks for a FB Pikal knife we could all afford.
I am a big fan of RGEI and that is why I have been starting threads and making posts and scratching the chalkboard about RGEI Pikal FB knife defense. I too as already mentioned would like to keep costs down. If I wanted to spend big bucks I will have a custom one made to my very specs. But maybe we can get this done so many can reap the rewards. The blade angles and orientation on the Disciple are near perfect, the slight hawkbill curve suits my needs just fine.
I don't need S30V (though I like the steel), but would be real ok with 154cm or VG-10 for this project. Would love to see this knife done in a double zero ground. I like the idea of the blade length running between 3.5" up to 4"....someplace in the middle would work for me as well. I would prefer micarta slabs or even something like the handle material found on the Moran if that would keep costs down. Even something with rubberized inserts set in strategic places for a solid tactile feel in the grip might be a way to go. I really want the handle shape to be oval and incorporate a flat pommel for thumb capping. I think the oval shape with a bit of palm swell, will give all the backwards knifers the neutrality they are looking for without having to go to a F-S dagger style shape that thins out near the pommel (that area of the handle I would prefer to be a tad thicker in circumference, it could taper a little but not as much as the F-S Dagger. The sheath could be kydex or something similar, but I'd like to see holes for lashing on both sides of the sheath. (I like belt carry through the use of paracord attachment for my fixed blades, no need for a tek-loc or G-Clip. Well that's my thoughts for now...I am very excited about the possibilities of a FB Pikal RGEI Knife for the Spyderco lineup...I'm excited because I always thought that you, SouthNarc and Sal could really get this one right.....Doc :D :D :D
I am a big fan of RGEI and that is why I have been starting threads and making posts and scratching the chalkboard about RGEI Pikal FB knife defense. I too as already mentioned would like to keep costs down. If I wanted to spend big bucks I will have a custom one made to my very specs. But maybe we can get this done so many can reap the rewards. The blade angles and orientation on the Disciple are near perfect, the slight hawkbill curve suits my needs just fine.
I don't need S30V (though I like the steel), but would be real ok with 154cm or VG-10 for this project. Would love to see this knife done in a double zero ground. I like the idea of the blade length running between 3.5" up to 4"....someplace in the middle would work for me as well. I would prefer micarta slabs or even something like the handle material found on the Moran if that would keep costs down. Even something with rubberized inserts set in strategic places for a solid tactile feel in the grip might be a way to go. I really want the handle shape to be oval and incorporate a flat pommel for thumb capping. I think the oval shape with a bit of palm swell, will give all the backwards knifers the neutrality they are looking for without having to go to a F-S dagger style shape that thins out near the pommel (that area of the handle I would prefer to be a tad thicker in circumference, it could taper a little but not as much as the F-S Dagger. The sheath could be kydex or something similar, but I'd like to see holes for lashing on both sides of the sheath. (I like belt carry through the use of paracord attachment for my fixed blades, no need for a tek-loc or G-Clip. Well that's my thoughts for now...I am very excited about the possibilities of a FB Pikal RGEI Knife for the Spyderco lineup...I'm excited because I always thought that you, SouthNarc and Sal could really get this one right.....Doc :D :D :D
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psychophipps
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Dr. Snubnose
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I like double zero-bevel grinds, nice penetrating slicer....Sounds like Pikal material to me!...Doc :Dpsychophipps wrote:Double zero grind, eh? Maybe we should just go with a scandi grind? The first ever inverted-edge defensive bushcrafter? That's the stuff!
Well, at least it would be easy to sharpen...
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psychophipps
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Dr. Snubnose
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hmmm we can fix that so it won't happen again, with a nice thick spine....Doc :Dpsychophipps wrote:As a qualifier, I dropped my Swick 2 onto my tile floor right after I bought it and the tip broke off (of course). Not too keen on a tiny-pointed knife so that can happen again.
It won't be a disqualifier for my purchase, it's just a preference. :)
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Kraton inserts would definitely aid in grip. I think putting one on the thumb cap would be a nice addition and if frn was used in the smooth variety might I suggest a cross hatched kraton insert pattern to break up the grip and make it cover more area. I think 4mm would be a nice stock but I'm sure some would disagree and this would add to cost so I geuss about 3mm or equal thickness of the millie blade stock. Make it stout but sharp. I would think a single hollow grind similar to emerson knives would be a good compromise to a zero grind and would make for excellent sharpness and. Help in penatration but keep the hollow grind thick towards the tip for penetration and durability. Also making the frn molds would add to the cost so g-10 would probably keep the cost down. I think either material could work fine just g-10 would be cheaper in this case Just a few more additional thoughts. In the words of bruce lee take what is useful and leave everything else.
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RogerRabbit
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This sounds great! A Shivworks/Spyderco production Disciple would not only increase availabillity but also "could" do it at a lower price, attracting more customers to this great design. However, the Shivworks Disciple is not an overly expensive knife and the same knife using the same materials would probably end up costing the same if it would be made by Spyderco.
So, for this to make sense, it would need a few material changes. I think a few small changes on the grip could add some versatillity too.
1) The finger groove on the opposite side on the P'Kal works great for the middle finger when you use it as a utility blade. It couldn't hurt to put it on a Shivworks/Spyderco Disciple too.
2) I agree on the less pointier back of the handle, so those who like it can place theyr thumb there (I'm one of them). This works fine on the P'Kal, so it doesn't have to be really flat. Round would do.
3) No need for S30V on a production version, this is (hopefully) not the kind of knife you would need to resharpen often. 154CM or VG-10 would do fine.
4) I love G10 grips. That said, 3 dimensional G10 grips are probably expensive to manufacture. The FRN/Kraton grips on the Bill Moran and the Spyderco Perrin feel very nice and secure in the hand. I'm sure they would also do fine on the Disciple (or the Clinch Pick for that matter).
So to sum this up, we're basically looking at a Disciple with an FRN/Kraton grip with a round butt and an additional finger groove like on the P'Kal, and a 154CM or VG-10 blade with something like a hidden full tang, in the MSRP $130 area (see Spyderco Perrin, Bill Moran). Maybe a little more $ for a good kydex sheath.
I own and often carry a P'Kal which is Spydercos most kick *** knife in my opinion. I do not own a Disciple becaue where I live I can legally carry a dagger which achieves the same goal. I'd go for this production version in a heart beat though.
So, for this to make sense, it would need a few material changes. I think a few small changes on the grip could add some versatillity too.
1) The finger groove on the opposite side on the P'Kal works great for the middle finger when you use it as a utility blade. It couldn't hurt to put it on a Shivworks/Spyderco Disciple too.
2) I agree on the less pointier back of the handle, so those who like it can place theyr thumb there (I'm one of them). This works fine on the P'Kal, so it doesn't have to be really flat. Round would do.
3) No need for S30V on a production version, this is (hopefully) not the kind of knife you would need to resharpen often. 154CM or VG-10 would do fine.
4) I love G10 grips. That said, 3 dimensional G10 grips are probably expensive to manufacture. The FRN/Kraton grips on the Bill Moran and the Spyderco Perrin feel very nice and secure in the hand. I'm sure they would also do fine on the Disciple (or the Clinch Pick for that matter).
So to sum this up, we're basically looking at a Disciple with an FRN/Kraton grip with a round butt and an additional finger groove like on the P'Kal, and a 154CM or VG-10 blade with something like a hidden full tang, in the MSRP $130 area (see Spyderco Perrin, Bill Moran). Maybe a little more $ for a good kydex sheath.
I own and often carry a P'Kal which is Spydercos most kick *** knife in my opinion. I do not own a Disciple becaue where I live I can legally carry a dagger which achieves the same goal. I'd go for this production version in a heart beat though.
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psychophipps
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Seeing lots of fans of the P'kal across the various boards speaking up on the idea of a fixed blade version. I like the idea as well due to the 3" blade length being the "magic number" of many jurisdictions with knife restrictions.
Any thoughts on some potential ergo tweaks y'all might want to see if this comes to fruition?
Any thoughts on some potential ergo tweaks y'all might want to see if this comes to fruition?
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Michael Janich
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Hey, Craig:
Great to see you on the forum, brother! I hope you're well.
I would love to see a Spyderco fixed-blade design that lends itself well to edge-in tactics. Ideally, it shouldn't exclude edge-out grips, but I'm good either way.
Personally, I would like to see this as not only a personal-defense piece for the broad market, but also a suitable handgun-retention/officer-survival tool for the LE community. To that end, I have some cool sheath ideas in mind.
I look forward to seeing you at the Northeast Shooter's Summit in April. Maybe we can discuss ideas then--alcohol inspired, of course!
Stay safe,
Mike
Great to see you on the forum, brother! I hope you're well.
I would love to see a Spyderco fixed-blade design that lends itself well to edge-in tactics. Ideally, it shouldn't exclude edge-out grips, but I'm good either way.
Personally, I would like to see this as not only a personal-defense piece for the broad market, but also a suitable handgun-retention/officer-survival tool for the LE community. To that end, I have some cool sheath ideas in mind.
I look forward to seeing you at the Northeast Shooter's Summit in April. Maybe we can discuss ideas then--alcohol inspired, of course!
Stay safe,
Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts