Spydie/ShivWorks FB Collaboration

[psychophipps]

I also wouldn't mind seeing a "universal grip" knife come out of this. The market in inverted-edge knives is sorely underutilized, but there are also plenty of folks that play around with multiple types of grips that it should work out as a pretty good seller for Spyderco. I would have no issues with a knife that I could do both Inverted and Edge Out techniques with as a continuation of my Tantojitsu training.

As a person that would know, how was your previous "universal grip" design received by the public in general terms, Mr. Janich?

[Michael Janich]

As a person that would know, how was your previous "universal grip" design received by the public in general terms, Mr. Janich?

Those who actually tried it liked it a lot. Currently, nobody in the company that sells it even knows how to assemble the sheath system. Typically, that does little to help sales...

Stay safe,

Mike

[markg]

This would be good, very good.

Make it and I will buy it. :)

[psychophipps]

Those who actually tried it liked it a lot.

Stay safe,

Mike

The one issue with such a progressive design. For people that love the latest and greatest steels and some seriously funky, and all too often useless, blade designs, we can be strangely conservative when it comes to the handle geometry we have become accustomed to.

I'm sure that it can get pretty frustrating for you guys at times... :o

[SouthNarc]

Hey Mike! I totally forgot about the conference. Nice timing! We'll DEFINITELY have to have a drink on this one.

[SPROGGY]

Hey, Craig:



Personally, I would like to see this as not only a personal-defense piece for the broad market, but also a suitable handgun-retention/officer-survival tool for the LE community. To that end, I have some cool sheath ideas in mind.



Mike

YES!!! Im an LEO and ive been looking for something to fill that gap for quite a while. I carry a pkal at work but the design of our uniform pockets isnt ideal for drawing the folder. A fixed blade along the lines of the disciple with a 3 inch blade and quality kydex sheath would be a dream come true.

[RogerRabbit]

This may sound a little odd, since the Disciple was designed with civilians in mind who could not legally carry a double edged blade in most countrys (not in mine), but if you're looking for additional input...

What I personally would like to see on a Shivworks/Spyderco Disciple is a false edge that theorethically could be sharpened. For LEO/Military or civilians who can legally carry a double edge in theyr country, this would give them the possibillity of also having a conventional "user" edge on it with no need at all to change the grip design for this additional use. With this blade shape, the knife would also be much more usefull than a conventional dagger. A spyder edged Military version with green or tan FRN/Kraton grip and Sheat comes to mind.... Awesome thought. :D

[psychophipps]

Probably not going to see a SE on this one. The consensus amongst both Southnarc and Mr. Janich seems to be that PE is better for a SD blade and SE is best saved for utility use.

[Joe Talmadge]

What I personally would like to see on a Shivworks/Spyderco Disciple is a false edge that theorethically could be sharpened. For LEO/Military or civilians who can legally carry a double edge in theyr country, this would give them the possibillity of also having a conventional "user" edge on it with no need at all to change the grip design for this additional use.

I like this idea, and was going to bring it up myself, but thought it was going to be hard enough to meet the other requirements (neutral handle, multi-position sheath that allows draw into any grip). I still don't think that doing a production Disciple is the right way to go -- it's not so expensive that Spyderco will come in at a much lower price point, and I'd rather have something that isn't so single purpose in terms of grip. But a sharpenable false edge is a nice aspirational goal

[RogerRabbit]

Probably not going to see a SE on this one. The consensus amongst both Southnarc and Mr. Janich seems to be that PE is better for a SD blade and SE is best saved for utility use.

I meant on the utility side. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that. PE would be fine with me too. :D

I like this idea, and was going to bring it up myself, but thought it was going to be hard enough to meet the other requirements (neutral handle, multi-position sheath that allows draw into any grip). I still don't think that doing a production Disciple is the right way to go -- it's not so expensive that Spyderco will come in at a much lower price point, and I'd rather have something that isn't so single purpose in terms of grip. But a sharpenable false edge is a nice aspirational goal

Well, with the option to sharpen the false edge, you wouldn't need a neutral handle anymore to achieve a utillity purpuse. If a utillity purpose is desirable for this knife in the first place is a different matter.

I agree with you that if the Spyderco would make a Shivworks knife at the same price point, it wouldn't make much sense. But I do think that with a few material changes the price could be droped far enaugh and the outcome would still be a great knife. The Perrin and the Moran have (had) a MSRP of arround $130, with Kydex sheath. And both are excellent knives. Even if a Disciple with the same materials would cost arround $150, it still would be arround $100 cheaper than the custom version.

Putting a false edge on it would not be a whole lot of work or overly expensive, and still achieve to give the customer options. It's rather a question of design, if Shivworks/Spyderco wants to go that route. It would take away a little space from the full flat grind and change the looks of the knife.

As far as the sheath is concerned, I'm not a fan of overengineering. The Sheath of the Zero Tolerance ZT0150 is a classic example of how to drown a sheath in fancy gimmiks you can't take off without damaging it. Also, something like a roto system usually makes a sheath rather cumbersome and carrying a small knive a moot point in my opinion. What I like the most is a simple well fit kydex sheath with enough holes for a TekLok or IWB loops. You can mount a TekLok at different angles anyway. But this is just my opinion of course, other people may have other experiences.

[Joe Talmadge]

I saw where you were going with the false edge, and the idea that you could still use the single-purpose grip, but now the false edge is there so it "works" in the opposite grip. The potential problem is that a very shallow false edge means that that edge will suck at cutting, even though it cuts. So either the blade design now has to accomodate a fuller false edge (so now the blade, rather than handle, has design compromises), or it may not be a usable solution.

Agree with you completely about the danger of over-complexifying and over-bulkerizing the sheath, in an effort to gain flexibility. I'd prefer it be no more complex or bulky than a kydex sheath plus teklok...

[mark greenman]

Well, personally the FB i'd love to see is a Spyderco Lil Loco 2, 154CM with the blade flipped, so its a straight wharnie with a triangular ramp spine. Would be great for keychain, wallet, and survival tin use, to say nothing of its already proven hideout potential.

As for the topic at hand, a neutral grip FB with a slightly larger Pikal style blade, that's very, very flat. That would be versatile and extremely effective in all grips.

[RogerRabbit]

I saw where you were going with the false edge, and the idea that you could still use the single-purpose grip, but now the false edge is there so it "works" in the opposite grip. The potential problem is that a very shallow false edge means that that edge will suck at cutting, even though it cuts. So either the blade design now has to accomodate a fuller false edge (so now the blade, rather than handle, has design compromises), or it may not be a usable solution.

Yes, you're absolutely right on that!
I believe it could be done (blade not too thick, you could put a SE on the "user" side if you decide to sharpen it..) but any change on the design (I'm not talking materials here) would be a compromise to the allready perfect for it's single purpose knife.

DE capabillity is just another option. The important question here is the intention. Should the design stay the same or not?
It allready cuts, so it allready can be used for day to day utillity tasks if neccessary. Works fine with the P'Kal. And to be honest, I allways carry a folder, no matter if i carry a fixed blade too or not. I suppose many of you do the same. :D

There isn't really a need for a utility side on this knife. I simply find the idea of a DE disciple really bad a$$, so I brought it up. :)

[Dr. Snubnose]

Yes, you're absolutely right on that!
I believe it could be done (blade not too thick, you could put a SE on the "user" side if you decide to sharpen it..) but any change on the design (I'm not talking materials here) would be a compromise to the allready perfect for it's single purpose knife.

DE capabillity is just another option. The important question here is the intention. Should the design stay the same or not?
It allready cuts, so it allready can be used for day to day utillity tasks if neccessary. Works fine with the P'Kal. And to be honest, I allways carry a folder, no matter if i carry a fixed blade too or not. I suppose many of you do the same. :D

There isn't really a need for a utility side on this knife. I simply find the idea of a DE disciple really bad a$$, so I brought it up. :)

I know of a few who are having DE Pakal knives made up by custom makers as I now type. Bad a$$ indeed...but I think the forum members want something simple and effective...I think most want a PE single edge Pakal...Doc :D

[Dr. Snubnose]

I was playing around with wood last night and came up with something unusual....I different kinda of Pikal Design (handle shape and blade) Funny thing is, in hand it works for RGEI, RGEU, and Forward Grippers might be happy as well...what do you guys think, here's a few pics...Doc :D
[img][IMG]http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... 1_1216.jpg[/img][/IMG]
[img][IMG]http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... 1_1225.jpg[/img][/IMG]
[img][IMG]http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... 1_1226.jpg[/img][/IMG]
[img][IMG]http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... 1_1231.jpg[/img][/IMG]
[img][IMG]http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... 1_1228.jpg[/img][/IMG]
Doc :D

[psychophipps]

Man, you'd be wasting a whole mess of steel cutting that one out, Doc.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Man, you'd be wasting a whole mess of steel cutting that one out, Doc.

That's why I used wood....LOL ...
Besides... you could make Ladybugs with the left over steel....Doc :D

[speedcut]

i for one would like to see a :spyder: version of the shivworks disciple...i think it would an awesome blade.... :)

[psychophipps]

Mr. Janich mentioned a potential retention-based focus and I was wondering about his thoughts on that.

Inverted-edge also makes for a great rescue-type knife as well because you don't have to worry about accidentally snapping the blade into your patient when you finish cutting their seat belt or reverse the blade in your hand when you cut their clothing to expose any injuries while under stress. Adding the power of a lateral pull vs a push from the arm in tight quarters for close-in cutting isn't only good for SD, after all.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Mr. Janich mentioned a potential retention-based focus and I was wondering about his thoughts on that.

Inverted-edge also makes for a great rescue-type knife as well because you don't have to worry about accidentally snapping the blade into your patient when you finish cutting their seat belt or reverse the blade in your hand when you cut their clothing to expose any injuries while under stress. Adding the power of a lateral pull vs a push from the arm in tight quarters for close-in cutting isn't only good for SD, after all.

You are correct sir!....The only problem that exists is this type of Pikal knife will still have a point, so one has to be very careful while inserting the blade under a seat belt, I think a sheepfoot design is better suited for such a function, and there exists a multitude of seat belt cutters designed by a variety of companies just for that rescue purpose, so there really isn't any need for a Pikal seat belt rescue knife. I think but Michael can correct me if I'm wrong, he is referring more to LEOs using the knife for handgun or baton retention. In this type of function the Pikal knife would really excel. It would probably be more effective than say the Civilian for this role and god forbid a LEO needed to thrust as opposed to cut or slash this knife would be most superior.....Doc :D