question for mike janich and any other sd enthusiast

[VashHash]

How do you feel about reverse edge in grip? I know you designed some knives to have neutral grips and some to have more specific grips just curious on your preference and f the yo 2 will be neutral or more specfic.

[Joe Talmadge]

I fall under "any other sd enthusiast". I feel that reverse grip edge in offers the most advantageous defense under realistic (not dueling) conditions -- if you specifically train and drill with it. I'll resist the temptations to list specific advantages and disadvantages that I see. That said, I also think too much can be made of grips; while I have my favorite grip, I train in a number of them (never know exactly how you'll grab a knife under such conditions), and plan to survive a criminal assault regardless of how I hold the knife.



Joe

[SnowCrash]

I'm also an enthusiast, and personally prefer the reverse grip for the unpredictability factor. If you have a blade held regularly, your opponent will most likely see you as holding a club and know exactly where the blade will strike. However when you reverse your grip, especially with an exotic shaped blade like the civilian, your opponent will be less likely to be able to predict your blade movement and where it will hit, and whether you are going to hit him with your fist or the blade. Also reverse grip favors thrusting attacks as well as looking much more intimidating (ever see a tasman salt held in a saber grip? Looks ridiculous if you're in a confrontation, like you're going to poke them :D )

[laplaga]

Mainly I think the reverse grip in my opinion is best for trapping when the other person is doing heavy slash motions and overhead strikes its good to get the blade around the wrist forearm or bicep and do massive collateral damage to the muscle tissue. Mainly I like reverse grips on knives with negative cutting angle ie karambit or kukri

[Javascript]

Wrong Forum.

[Blerv]

Tactics aside your basically trading range for a more savage sawing/sewing mindset. As many "knife fights" are in Psycho film making fashion (I.E. ice pick) the P'Kal blades do well for this.

Don't quote me but Southnarc I believe designed a methodology (or popularized) that would be quick to deploy and savage in a real world encounter.

I don't know what kind of empty-hand curriculum Shivworks offers which is a good question for those who train. You can't always get to your knife when you want to. What is plan B?

[Joe Talmadge]

Mainly I think the reverse grip in my opinion is best for trapping when the other person is doing heavy slash motions and overhead strikes its good to get the blade around the wrist forearm or bicep and do massive collateral damage to the muscle tissue. Mainly I like reverse grips on knives with negative cutting angle ie karambit or kukri

Are you thinking about reverse grip edge out? I don't know anyone who uses reverse grip edge in this way, though some aspects of it may be present... have you trained with a reverse grip edge in specialist like southnarc or floro? Just asking, because yours feels like an edge-out type answer, and the OP asked about edge-in.

Tactics aside your basically trading range for a more savage sawing/sewing mindset. As many "knife fights" are in Psycho film making fashion (I.E. ice pick) the P'Kal blades do well for this.

With proper body mechanics, you're trading less range than you might think .. . Check out Ray Floro's strike, and note the extension and range: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV5TfZBB1Lo BTW, I've seen Ray do that to countless people. He puts the helmet on everyone in the class, tells them exactly where he's going to hit them (in the face), even lets them put their hands all the way up to defend... never seen anyone stop him yet.

In any case, though, the knife usually isn't used at range anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a tradeoff to get more in-close effectiveness. Though again, as Ray shows, you can get some nice range.

Blerv, to answer your other question, Southnarc has an integrated empty hands system, some of the basics are shown on his reverse grip video #2

[Blerv]

With proper body mechanics, you're trading less range than you might think .. . Check out Ray Floro's strike, and note the extension and range: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV5TfZBB1Lo BTW, I've seen Ray do that to countless people. He puts the helmet on everyone in the class, tells them exactly where he's going to hit them (in the face), even lets them put their hands all the way up to defend... never seen anyone stop him yet.

In any case, though, the knife usually isn't used at range anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a tradeoff to get more in-close effectiveness. Though again, as Ray shows, you can get some nice range.

Blerv, to answer your other question, Southnarc has an integrated empty hands system, some of the basics are shown on his reverse grip video #2

Good points. I have seen that video with Ray before.

It's true your not losing much range and potentially using a stronger grip. I don't think it's a deal-breaker for those who enjoy the style/method.

However, based on the natural bend of the wrist you are giving up some range over a conventional saber/hammer grip. Specifically you are giving up more fluid arm movement. Compared to even a standard reverse grip your arc is limited.

I think ultimately it's a new system vs hundreds of years of martial arts tradition. If people find it balanced and effective great. It's an uphill battle though.

[chuck_roxas45]

Doc Snubnose mentioned a disadvantage of edge out reverse grip for folders several weeks ago in off-topic. IIRC, the particular disadvantage was the stress put on the lock with edge out when you stab and rip. Edge in reverse grip coupled with the proper technique is an excellent way to make an opponent pay for a block.

[VashHash]

My thoughts on the edge in is it helps employ the gross motor skill factor which in an emergency is what most people rely on regardless of training when panic sets in. I just recently acquired a pkal. My friend decided he didn't want or use his so we traded. I definitely try to diversify my techniques but I just like to see what other people think I also like inverted edge tactics too where the edge is facing up in the club/hammer grip. I know on the kalista mike designed for blackhawk has almost the same handle shape as the p'kal. Its kinda funny how close they are and I've seen mike use it in drills REI. But it also is set up for the saber grip with the thumb on top similar to the ronin/yojimbo. Has a more neutral grip to it. The angle on the pkal is set more for REI which is what it was designed for but I'm just curious on mikes thoughts and design for the new yo if its more nuetral or still purpose built for the thumb on top saber grip. Just fun to hear dfferent aspects of everything. I also know one of the basic aspects of the shivworks curriculum is to keep stabbing and slashing if something gets in the way of your movement it is severed

[Joe Talmadge]

While I love the way the P'kal locks in your hand in RGEI, I also really like a more neutral grip that's secure in multiple different grips. I'm interested in what Mike's cooking up also, he's always got great reasons for his design decisions.

In Shivworks, the retraction functions as the slash. Ray Floro also adds other approaches to solving the blocking limb, including twisting the wrist around it back to the centerline (works really well even under pressure)

[Nonprophet]

For an untrained person the point up blade out position is comfortable and what they're used to. It also offers many different uses that even an untrained chimp can do. With the reverse grip blade in, you have less tools available unless you have some skill and training. Once you have that training those other uses show up again but they aren't natural or comfortable for the most part until you have practiced them. If you have that skill and training ANY grip is good and the reverse can be nasty but for the average Joe the standard grip is probably the most utilitarian.

[The Mentaculous]

I'm by no means an expert, but I have studied some combative and unarmed martial arts, so here's my opinion--Personally, I believe that in any self defense encounter, range is the most important aspect to control. Maybe it's my background in kickboxing, but I think that being able to make your opponent pay for getting inside or not want to come into your range is a key aspect of defending yourself in an attack. That why, personally, I feel a saber or hammer grip is the best, and easiest to employ. However, with the training, I know other grips can be very effect, especially for something like weapons retention if you carry a handgun, in which case they may already be on the inside. But for me, the ideal application of a folding knife is to keep your opponent away from you, and make him pay big-time (ie cut the insides of his wrist/elbow or above his knee, immobilizing him). From what I've studied and seen, a standard saber or hammer grip seems to give you the most range

edit:nonprophet you pretty much nailed it--a standard grip is more effective with less training, while any grip can be effective. I think someone with a high level of training in reverse grip could be much more effective than a novice in standard grip, but if you were to compare 2 people at the same level with different grips, I'd think that a standard grip would be the more effective.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: People tend to fight like they train, on their worst day of training. Pick a style that works for your body-type and personality and train hard and try to make good decisions and stay out of bars. The "best" style or technique is a martial artist fetish fantasy and should be eschewed . :spyder:

[Dr. Snubnose]

Michael how come we always gotta stay out of Bars :p :p....I gonna second whatever Joe says in regards to this topic...I am a fan of both edge in and edge out techniques pikal Grip/Reverse Grip, whatever you want to call it...both work for me really well, but then again I have a lot of experience, and train hard using both styles...The average person just might be better suited with a forward grip position for SD....Doc :D

[VashHash]

Not really a big fan of bars or drinking for that matter lol. I do a good bit of practice with edge out reverse grip too and I find its a prefered style but I like to keep trying new things. Edge in isn't my instinctive choice but I see it as a viable solution and figured I would gather some opinions on the matter from more experienced individuals. I feel very confident with a knife regardless of edge orientation. I just find it fun to discuss these things. I prefer to fight defensively but I see edge in as more offensive because you're usually pulling your target in as opposed to edge out techniques that push the opponent away. Different encounters may also change the degree of aggression and technique. So ts good to be versatile and change your style on the fly if need be. You never know the persons background when they attack you. The days of samurais annoucning their school and moves before completing them are long gone if I have typos where the letter I is missing I apologize I'm using my phone and the I isn?t working right

[p3pe]

I like one in each hand. One reversed, blade out, and one saber. What do you think of that?

[Joe Talmadge]

Agree with both Doc and Michael Cook. One of the problems in talking about grip, is that you end up sounding as if the grip is doing all the work, as opposed to the person actually holding the grip. I also agree that for someone untrained, regular forward grip (edge down) is the way to go. And, to punctuate the point that too much is made of grip, although I see real advantages for myself in RGEI, I normally carry a waved endura, which pulls into forward grip.

Personally, I believe that in any self defense encounter, range is the most important aspect to control. Maybe it's my background in kickboxing, but I think that being able to make your opponent pay for getting inside or not want to come into your range is a key aspect of defending yourself in an attack.

You know, some years back I was the guy arguing exactly this to Don Rearic and the other pikal fans on bf. That was before I learned how to use RGEI, and really saw and used it pressure tested, in realistic type drills. But put that aside, there are some important points to bring out in the quote above that I'd like to hear your thoughts on.

First, keep in mind that with a small knife, RGEI with proper body mechanics doesn't reduce your range much -- an inch or two, maybe (again, see the video I posted to see an example). And if it buys you effectiveness at all ranges, that might be a good tradeoff for some (right?).

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, we're talking about self defense, where the range can't always be dictated by you. It is very often the case that an assault occurs at close range, and that the defender doesn't draw until that point, or even that the defender has to make time to draw using empty hand skills. Plus, while it's possible to dictate the range against multiple opponents, let's face it, it's hard -- and there's no saying that while you keep one guy at range, the other doesn't step in. And lastly, if the other guy is armed with (say) a stick, if you stay at range, every time you want to strike you cross his kill zone -- you may well want to step in close and stay there, where your weapon is most effective and his less so. In short, in sport it's a perfectly fine strategy to stay at range, particularly since the event starts there. In self defense, range is good in that it usually favors the more trained fighter, but you'd better be training hard at every range, and empty your mind of expectations that you can dictate range.

I have a true-life self-defense story from a few years back, that happened near me, that illustrates all of this pretty nicely. Had the guy chosen to stay at range (not that he had much choice), he'd likely be dead...

For myself, in my experience, it doesn't take that much training before RGEI's become apparent. But there are really good guys, including guys much better than me, that have varying opinions. I think to the OP, maybe the answer is: if you have so little training with RGEI that you have to ask about it, forward grip is probably better for you for now. Once you train it, you'll probably make up your own mind on the matter pretty quickly, one way or the other.

[Michael Janich]

Thanks for the lively discussion , guys. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

Interestingly, I just submitted my latest "Street Smarts" column to Tactical Knives on the advantages and disadvantages of the reverse grip. It will be out in the next issue. To save you the suspense, here's a brief summary of my thoughts:

The main things you need to understand about reverse grip, in general, are that you are making the commitment to fight at closer range and that you must use different body mechanics than you will in standard grip.

I have great respect for Southnarc and Ray Floro and the effort that both have put into their arts. They are both very physically talented and present their systems exceedingly well. Nevertheless, I choose to take a different path with my pursuit of reverse grip tactics.

Reverse-grip edge-in is without a doubt one of the most powerful and devastating methods of using a knife combatively. In simple term, you thrust and rip out. If your opponent blocks, the rip shears the limb, removes the barrier, and you go back to thrusting and ripping. From a standpoint of gross motor skills and biomechanics (your actions, not what your cutting), it's simple and extremely effective. However, it relies primarily on the idea of killing him before he kills you. With the exception of the limb shears, your targeting is all geared toward major life-supporting structures. You must stop the whole body to stop the limbs that are trying to hurt you.

Even when expressed in this reasonably "clinical" way, this methodology makes it much harder to justify your actions as self-defense. Although that articulation has to take second place to actually surviving the incident, it still has to be a consideration in today's world.

Ray Floro's reverse-grip thrust is amazingly fast and offers tremendous reach for a reverse-grip tactic. However, with the exception of shots to the eyes, it does not offer significant stopping power. Again, potentially lethal thrusts to the neck can eventually stop the attacker, but leave you in danger for a long time at close range.

Reverse-grip is a purposely minor element of Martial Blade Concepts (MBC). We practice edge out and do very little edge-in work. This is not that unusual, as many core training methods of the FMA--most notably "Cover and Slash"--are based on edge-out tactics. Our focus is on pressure cuts to the weapon wielding arm, control of that arm, gaining a position of advantage, and creating a mobility kill by targeting the legs. Along the way, we apply our improved and medically sound approaches to stopping power, which work on three levels: structural (muscles and tendons), neurological (peripheral nerves that control movement), and vascular (parallel arterial structures that actually carry more blood volume than the vessels of the neck).

Based on my research and training, this approach provides a system of skills that can be readily learned, applied effectively under stress, and, if necessary, justified responsibly in court.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

Mike

[VashHash]

Thanks for the input mike. I guess no hints on the yojimbo 2s handle orientation. I think I employ the edge in tactis a little differently. I would try to get the knife inside joins and limbs and pull back to get to ligaments and tendons and at the same time try to get the opponent on the ground but this would of course require me to get in close. If someone can't stand its hard to have much of a situation.