question for mike janich and any other sd enthusiast

[VashHash]

I mentioned the kalista because if you compare the handle of a kalista to the handle of the pkal they look very similar but the angle on the kalistas blade makes the knife in itself more neutral. I just don't know if mike owns the rights to knives he desgins for other companies and didn't wanna step on toes. I know mike took the janisong with him when he left blackhawk but I dont know if the kalsta is his sole desgn. I do like the way the handle is but maybe a longer blade would be more approprate. I think the blade shape would work equally well with either reverse/inverted and mbc tactics. Eiither way just think a handle without a "proper" orientation would be best. I would even settle for some very basic like the semi hourglass shape on the hissatsu. Of course there needs to be something keeping the hand from sliding onto the edge. I think maybe take the ronin blade shape and handle and shift it to the middle of the knife. Just my thoughts on existing models with slight tweaks. I know there was talk of a skeletonized byrd ronin awhile back in a thread I can't remember.

[psychophipps]

I mentioned the kalista because if you compare the handle of a kalista to the handle of the pkal they look very similar but the angle on the kalistas blade makes the knife in itself more neutral. I just don't know if mike owns the rights to knives he desgins for other companies and didn't wanna step on toes. I know mike took the janisong with him when he left blackhawk but I dont know if the kalsta is his sole desgn. I do like the way the handle is but maybe a longer blade would be more approprate. I think the blade shape would work equally well with either reverse/inverted and mbc tactics. Eiither way just think a handle without a "proper" orientation would be best. I would even settle for some very basic like the semi hourglass shape on the hissatsu. Of course there needs to be something keeping the hand from sliding onto the edge. I think maybe take the ronin blade shape and handle and shift it to the middle of the knife. Just my thoughts on existing models with slight tweaks. I know there was talk of a skeletonized byrd ronin awhile back in a thread I can't remember.

I was thinking of a tapering handle as well. The finger choil doesn't have to be particularly big or deep, as shown with the Kalista, for a positive grip with thrusting. I really like the volcano FRN for a positive grip but some people think that it feels "cheap" when compared to G10 or Micarta options despite the fact that it grips like a demon.

As for the blade size, the magic number for most jurisdictions with blade length limits seems to be 3". It's long enough to get the job done and short enough that deployment is quick and easy for in-fight tool access.

[2edgesword]

I'm 5"7 (almost, cause I'm shrinking by the day LOL) and a whopping 138lbs....I have no problem "crashing" in....with the proper footwork, intent, and determination...

Key elements and I train to do it.

One of my first MA instructors was a 6'2" 325 lb monster and we spend a lot of time working on crashing, proper footwork and stance. I use to dread those days when I was the only one to show up for the 9:00am Saturday morning class wondering if he really was going to make me try to hip throw him as we worked various belt requirements :) .

Having said that the laws of physics aren't suspended as a result of my black belt certificates and when possible I'm looking to avoid a crash.

[Michael Rigg]

With respect to all,

I am reminded again why I don't contribute to internet forums much. Having said that, into the swirling vortex.

None of these comments are addressed to a specific individual, style or system of fighting, or instructor. I am not proselytizing for MBC. These are my opinions, and mine alone.

1. MBC and Mike J, do have a grip preference. Standard grip as described before. We train all grips, and strive to understand the advantages, and disadvantages of each grip in many possible scenarios, but if we are going to introduce a knife into a lethal force confrontation, our goto grip is standard grip.

2. Mike Janich has written extensively about knife grips and his preference. If you care to know why he has a preference, do some Googling.

3. I train in MBC, I don't hold MBC as superior to all other systems, it is what I train in, and teach. It works for me, and I am confident in my abilities. I have been fortunate to train with many other instructors, and I have benefited from their instruction. There are many excellent combat systems in the world, and many excellent instructors. I will continue to seek out instruction from outside the MBC system, and if I can incorporate new tactics and techniques into my own training, all the better.

I train, and teach. I learn new things everyday, some of which I use, some of which I discard. MBC is a living, breathing system, and it evolves constantly. I am sure that the same thing can be said for many other systems.

I am not a baddass, or a subject matter expert. I am just a middle-aged guy that trains.

4. The Yojimbo 2 is not designed to directly support RGEI. Doesn't mean that you can't hold the knife that way, if that is your preference.

5. I hope to have the opportunity to train with all of you someday, and to learn from your experience.

Chacun son goût!

Best regards,

Mike

[2edgesword]

Chacun son goût!

For those without Babel Fish, or who played hooky when then should have been in French class during high school, in essense it means "to each his own" :) .

Do kids still use the word "hooky"? I'll have to check with one of the grandkids tonight....

Sorry, grandpa tends to ramble. :)

[Qship]

Two quick comments: first, it appears to me that what you're doing is imagining what would happen if you used RGEO tactics, but were holding the knife RGEI. RGEI, you'd be using other, more effective (we believe) tactics. Apologies if you're not making this mistake, but it sure feels like it. It's happened about 4 times in this thread already ... who have you trained with for RGEI techniques?

Secondly, all this talk about his "knife hand". We're talking self defense, and more often than not that means an attacker not armed with a knife -- though obviously knife-on-knife happens and should be prepared for, there's no reason to necessarily assume comparably-armed individuals. Defender has a knife -- attacker(s) may or may not, but probably doesn't, though he/they may have other weapons.

Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to get across, and failing, was edge in won't get me where I want to go, which is why I don't practice it. I did experiment with it, and found it lacking -- for me. People need to do what works for them. I put in time with Mr. Janich, so I admit to sharing Mike Rigg's bias. I also prefer standard grip unless nose to nose with my attacker.

Against someone armed with a weapon, edge in makes a disarm more difficult. The disarm for most weapons is usually the same as disarming someone attacking with a knife. You want the hand holding the weapon to quit working, instantly.

Against someone unarmed, using a knife at all is likely to result in an nasty Problem Two, a criminal trial followed by a civil suit for damages. You can, of course, assert Disparity of Force, but it may cost you a big chunk of your net worth to convince a jury. Less damage to your attacker is generally better.

Qship

[Michael Rigg]

A little more perspective.

Qship is my "age and treachery" hero. I have never known a slipperier, smoother player. He was training T'ai Chi, and JKD with the big boys in CA in the early 70's. A very talented and dangerous martial artist.

He also put in more than "time" with Mike Janich. "Q" was one of the original MBC private students and he contributed much to the current state of the MBC system.

I am honored to know him, and to have trained with him. We also occasionally butted heads, and I always benefited from the experience.

Best,

Mike

[Joe Talmadge]

Sorry for the confusion. What I was trying to get across, and failing, was edge in won't get me where I want to go, which is why I don't practice it. I did experiment with it, and found it lacking -- for me. People need to do what works for them. I put in time with Mr. Janich, so I admit to sharing Mike Rigg's bias. I also prefer standard grip unless nose to nose with my attacker.

Fair enough ... you've also trained a lot longer than me if you've been training since the '70s or earlier. That said, the question about whether you've trained with a RGEI wasn't meant to be provocative -- training with someone who knows how to make RGEI sing really changed my mind. As I'd said zillions of threads back, I was earlier an RGEI skeptic, based on previous training experiences... for me personally, now, RGEO is the only grip I have little confidence in, and feel that it optimizes for the least effective techniques while reducing the effectiveness of the most effective -- which, again, is one of the reason I'm always sensitive to people using RGEO techniques to describe why RGEI has problems.

Against someone armed with a weapon, edge in makes a disarm more difficult. The disarm for most weapons is usually the same as disarming someone attacking with a knife. You want the hand holding the weapon to quit working, instantly.

So, this brings out a couple of points. One is that, for me, I find myself not searching for disarms, but I'll take one when it comes. And for that, I have higher confidence in a RGEI style counter working as a disarm than most of the other disarms I've seen -- particularly against someone hitting hard and fast and possibly trying to crash in. And I don't know that Southnarc does those, but Ray's RGEI system has a highly developed outside strategy that works for me for disarms better than anything else I've ever done.

And this, perhaps, brings up the really fundamental disagreement: I love Mike's system and the philosophy behind it, but after looking at as much data as I could (mostly anecdotal), I just plain don't believe that some of the slashes being described will have the effect described; or more precisely, a different strategy entirely will be much more likely to stop an assault. It is obvious that, just by being part of MBC, you disagree, and I'm not sure it's easy for either of us to convince the other, since I"m sure you did your homework also. But I worry that this really ends up with each of us saying to the other, "you're right, you can do X better than me, but since X isn't the most effective way to go, it's more important that I can do Y better than you", ad infinitum.

Would be better for all of us to meet in the park and exchange techniques. Though the question of, "will X cause the desired effect better than Y?" always hangs overhead.

Against someone unarmed, using a knife at all is likely to result in an nasty Problem Two, a criminal trial followed by a civil suit for damages. You can, of course, assert Disparity of Force, but it may cost you a big chunk of your net worth to convince a jury. Less damage to your attacker is generally better.

Definitely true. Of course, that doesn't mean there aren't multiple attackers, or that the attacker is armed with something else, or both -- those are the much more likely conditions under which I might pull the knife, not against a single unarmed attacker. So I was more objecting to the description of the attacker's knife, which felt like it was being posited as the likely condition, but I didn't think we should necessarily assume the presence of (though it's possible). Apologies for the grammar in the sentence.

Joe

[psychophipps]

To be honest, the only reason why I espouse the effectiveness of FGEI is because that's all I've been exposed in anything approaching detail to outside of extra-dojo training sessions. The people that I have trained with in the past that used FGEO didn't fare any better than anyone else during our FoF segments so I, very likely in error, simply took that as indicative that it does the same things (cut people) and left it at that.

Different, but not necessarily superior in the context of my experience.

You know, like an idiot...

[Fred Sanford]

Is Reverse Grip Edge In the same as P'kal grip? I'm picturing a knife being held like a hammer. The knife and handle completely vertical but with the blade point facing down to the ground.... and the edge facing inward.

I'm not much of a knife SD guy so sorry folks. Just wondering.

[Joe Talmadge]

I think all of the following is correct, I'm sure someone will point out if not:

P'kal is the name of a knife by Spyderco.

Pakal or Pikal are various spellings of a word that essentially means "reverse grip". So technically, pakal can mean reverse grip edge in, **or** reverse grip edge out. However, when someone uses the word and doesn't specify, I find they are often referring to reverse grip edge in.

Your description above for reverse grip edge in is correct.

[Fred Sanford]

Cool deal. Thanks Joe!

[2edgesword]

The overwhelming vast majority of knife and blunt force weapon attacks are forehand, angle 1 attacks. From the attackers perspective that would be from their 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock position and entering the defenders 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock position. Regardless of how the attacker is using his knife, standard or reverse grip, edge in or out the most effective defense in my opinion is utilizing a standard grip and slash to the extended limb wielding the weapon while moving to the outside of the attackers arms away from his free hand. In doing this you compromise the attackers ability to continue to use the weapon AND put yourself in a position that makes it difficult for the attacker to use his free hand to strike or grab. You also avoid a collision that may knock you of balance. This is very difficult to do RGEO and just about impossible RGEI.

Are there other ways to defend against this type of attack? Yes, but in my opinion avoiding the collision, moving to a position (outside) that makes it difficult for the attacker to use his other weapons while putting yourself in an advantageous position for follow-up cuts or strikes increases the odds of a successful outcome for the person defending.

Of course the above scenario requires that your awareness, orientation and immediate environment allow you the opportunity to make the slash, avoid the incoming weapon and move to the outside. But if I'm caught on the inside holding the knife in Filipino grip, edge out it still provides a means of effectively countering with initial thrust to targets that compromise the attackers ability to wield the weapon (upward thrust into the armpit is one of them) as well as stabs to the abdomen and thoracic region that may or may not do anything to immediate diminish the attackers ability to wield the weapon or even slow him down.

Now we all understand that there are 1001 ways an attack can go down and in different situations one or another grip and knife orientation might provide an advantage. Ideally it would be nice to have unlimited time to train to cover as many possible scenarios as possible. But the reality is with the exception of the obsessive/compulsive types on this forum most individuals will spend a couple of hours a week training. In my opinion there is no more efficient means of building proficiency then starting a student with something they are already familiar with, building on that familiarity and with respect to using an edged weapons as a self-defense tool that means standard grip, edge out with a focus on defending against the most common types of attacks.

[Joe Talmadge]

The overwhelming vast majority of knife and blunt force weapon attacks are forehand, angle 1 attacks.

I'd say it's likely the case that the most common attack is a modified angle 5, accompanied by forward drive -- the most common attack in knife training class might be a 1 though. But since knife-on-knife is unlikely anyway, this scenario shouldn't necessarily be the entire determiner of strategy. But maybe we're talking in circles now :)

[chuck_roxas45]

Are we talking about the same angles here? Attacker's POV.

Angle 1: 12-3 o'clock, Angle 2: 9-12 o'clock, Angle 3: 3-6 o'clock, Angle 4: 2-4 o'clock, Angle 5: 6-9 o'clock. This is what I have, am I correct in assuming that is what you guys mean?

[Dr. Snubnose]

Angles Smangles....There is no one right solution to every problem...though some systems teach this philosophy so the student doesn't have to remember loads of techniques, but can use just a few to deal with every situation. Throw an angle one and I'll do this etc. etc. etc. You know what...throw an angle 1 at me 100 times and each and every time I'll respond by doing 100 different techniques...If you could duplicate the exact angle of attack each time perfectly (which you can't) I would probably do the same technique to counter each time....I don't do this when my opponent does that, real fights don't happen that way...one thing to learn that way, and even train that way,it's another to fight that way. Kinda like flow drills are to learn to flow..it's not combat by any stretch of the imagination. I would never think to use one to defend myself...Doc :D

[chuck_roxas45]

You're right doc, but I just wanted to be able to visualize what they were discussing. :D

[Dr. Snubnose]

Hey no problem Chuck, and my comments were not directed at you...I'm just opening up Pandora's box here, stretching the envelope so to say, as I already know there will be lots of comments about what I just posted...but it's all good, cause it gets us to think...compare...evaluate....test....re-evaluate and learn from one another...and maybe move outside the box a bit....It was the great psychologist Abraham Maslow who said "When your only tool is a hammer every problem begins to look like a nail"....There are a lot of letters between A and Z, just as there are many ways to deal with any angle or method of attack...just trying to get people to think for themselves....and realize that when it comes to real combat not everything is going to be the way you want it, rarely will it exist without problems you didn't expect or imagined, never will it be predictable....Doc :D

[chuck_roxas45]

As always doc, your posts are insightful and that's why I always follow threads like this because with you and the other guys here, there are always a lot of valuable information. I just need to watch, read, and learn. :D

[2edgesword]

I'd say it's likely the case that the most common attack is a modified angle 5, accompanied by forward drive -- the most common attack in knife training class might be a 1 though. But since knife-on-knife is unlikely anyway, this scenario shouldn't necessarily be the entire determiner of strategy. But maybe we're talking in circles now :)

Just for the sake of clarification when you refer to an angle 5 are you referring to a straight line thrust up the middle? While that is a common attack with a knife that is not how a blunt force weapon would commonly be used. I would also say that with respect to a knife a slashing angle 1 would be as common if not more so with respect to the utilization of a knife.

If by angle 5 you're meaning a downward hammer fist type of attack I think the difference in what we are describing is semantics, and the defensive reaction I described would still be the preference since it once again accomplishs the primary objects, helps you avoid being cut while moving to the outside and allows for wounding the attackers extended limb in a way that might immediately compromise his ability to use his weapon.