question for mike janich and any other sd enthusiast

[2edgesword]

Good point. I lack this information in a definitive textual reference by a cross-checked source.

I do, however, have 18 years of anecdotal recollections from Folsom State Prison (my uncle Phil) during the ascension of the Mexican Mafia and a combined 40+ years anecdotal recollections from United States Penitentiary, Leavenworth (my friend Jake and his AB buddies)....

It is probably much more common to see stabbing attacks in a prison environment due to the nature of weapons available to them. It is probably much easier to fashion a pointed weapon appropriate for stabbing versus a weapon with a sharp edge for slashing. I'm not saying it can't be done (sharp edged weapon) but not as common in a prison environment.

George Matheis has repeatedly stated that he sees defensive use by untrained students to be wide looping slashing while backpedaling. This includes military and law enforcement personnel and those with previous unarmed combat training. To be frank, until you're trained otherwise, slashing typically = defensive as you see the exact same thing in the aforementioned prison riot videos. Look at the attackers thrusting and the guys just trying to assess or get away slashing, it's there if you really look for it.

George's experience supports my contention that people are much more familiar with a knife orientation and the gross motor skills that are utilized in a slashing attack versus stabbing, or anything related to the application of a knife in reverse edge. This is pretty much the point I was making with respect to training, especially with respect to initial edged weapons training.

The point-driven methodology is similarly going to be used in an assaultive mode by untrained practitioners due to the body mechanics. If you're initiating an assaultive drive to bowl over or ram your opponent into something so you can get a position of dominance and get the good hits in, you're going to thrust because it's really hard to effective slash while you're blowing into someone like a steamroller. You can, however, fairly effectively keep slamming a point into them with either a forward grip or an ice pick grip so this is what gets used more often than not in an assaultive mode.

As mentioned above, I don't think you can use the prison experience as general support for how an untrained person will use a knife (slashing versus stabbing). I do know that the overwhelming, vast majority of population has experience with handling a knife and the most common method is standard grip in something similar to a slashing motion, whether you're talking about cutting a steak or opening a box. I have never seen anyone cut open a box or cut a steak using a reverse edge method.

I'm not debating the overall pros and cons of either method and I have no doubt that with training an individual can become proficient in either. Having said that I would disagree with the idea that teaching reverse grip/reverse edge can be done as efficiently (hours of instruction and practice) versus standard grip/edge out, with the foundation of my argument being, with all else being equal, starting with and building on the familiar is in most case going to achieve better results in a shorter amount of time then introducing a totally new orientation and set of motor skills that are unfamiliar to most student.

[psychophipps]

It is probably much more common to see stabbing attacks in a prison environment due to the nature of weapons available to them. It is probably much easier to fashion a pointed weapon appropriate for stabbing versus a weapon with a sharp edge for slashing. I'm not saying it can't be done (sharp edged weapon) but not as common in a prison environment.

George's experience supports my contention that people are much more familiar with a knife orientation and the gross motor skills that are utilized in a slashing attack versus stabbing, or anything related to the application of a knife in reverse edge. This is pretty much the point I was making with respect to training, especially with respect to initial edged weapons training.

As mentioned above, I don't think you can use the prison experience as general support for how an untrained person will use a knife (slashing versus stabbing). I do know that the overwhelming, vast majority of population has experience with handling a knife and the most common method is standard grip in something similar to a slashing motion, whether you're talking about cutting a steak or opening a box. I have never seen anyone cut open a box or cut a steak using a reverse edge method.

I'm not debating the overall pros and cons of either method and I have no doubt that with training an individual can become proficient in either. Having said that I would disagree with the idea that teaching reverse grip/reverse edge can be done as efficiently (hours of instruction and practice) versus standard grip/edge out, with the foundation of my argument being, with all else being equal, starting with and building on the familiar is in most case going to achieve better results in a shorter amount of time then introducing a totally new orientation and set of motor skills that are unfamiliar to most student.

Even with real knives outside of a prison environment you see stabbing much more often in an assaultive mode than a slash. This distinction is to clarify the difference between the brandishing and posturing that is much more common with the occasional, still potentially lethal, wounding that results and the "I want you dead, Deader, DEADEST" of a true-blue lethal-intent knife assault. Just because you're not in the joint doesn't make the mechanics of blowing into someone and thrusting away as you try to bowl them into something any less effective.

I will respectfully agree to disagree on the last point with the caveat that I prefer FGEI, not RGEI . What you describe has not been the case in my experience in relation to my "trained" knife methodology (and I use the term "trained" loosely here) and instruction time/combat effectiveness ratio.

When I have had the chance to train with a few traditional FMA students they were not much more prepared for having a 6' 2", 200+ lbs guy cannonballing into them, shoving their chins up and back with his off hand, shoving them against the wall, and pounding a training knife into their belly button, and then liver after an initial crotch hook and rip than my buddies when we first got started. Sounds a bit unfair, but this was pretty much how every single one of my "instructors" started their attacks, counter or otherwise, including the middle-aged 5' 2" female Arnis instructor I started this whole process with.

Of course, this methodology is certainly a lot less legally defensible than some others, so like all things it's a definite trade-off when it comes to standing in front of the judge.

[psychophipps]

As an aside, is there a consensus that we should open another thread to describe what we would like to see in an inverted edge knife? There was the mention of an all-grips knife potentially of an ilk similar to the Blackhawk Kalista and I certainly would like to potentially discuss either option further. :)

[Dr. Snubnose]

I am all for opening another thread to discuss the possibilities further, as long as Sal is willing to join us in the discussion. I think if we put our heads together we can come up with an innovative design to suit both RGEI and FGEI techniques without having to break the bank for the Maker and the ELUs. I am one of those people that won't spend the bucks for the Disciple that you spoke of....it's not that I don't like the knife...it's the price point, as for now I find using the Kumo in RGEI techniques works ok for me....That being said I'd rather have a Spyderco dedicated knife designed for the purpose of RGEI Fixed Blade techniques...Doc :D

[stonyman]

You know guys, I feel drawn into this, regardless it will be misunderstood. Those that have a certain degree of training and experience can understand the makeup of what RGEI offers and does not. I happen to be a stickler(wow, stick'em)for footwork which transitions to superior positioning. Limited spacing, okay, body maneuvering. Look at guys like Ray,Narc, people get too caught up in the wrong thing. Watch there footwork, their base/core is balanced, they are always ready to attack continuously.........never off balance. Q up kalig's vids.Watch his footwork, lowered base! Standing,kneeling, ground work. Many believe this thing that they will just cut and run or stand and exchange. Since when do we live in a perfect world? Two people face-off whistle blows and two square off with blades, guns etc. Maybe, not usually. I train it all....at least as much as I can. So if I take the so called limited RGEI grip with superior footwork and with the most dog nasty desire to make it home to my family. You get a guy who will use whatever it takes to win, not be partial to status quo. It is amazing what a hard jab to the face opens up..........Joe spot on with the distance and the logic behind it. It is a big difference fighting someone to win a mutual scrap as oppose to someone who really wants to Kill you! I speak from the latter, that is what shapes my empty hand, knife and gun training. You can cut, jab,stab in RGEI? As you close the movements are more compressed. Major pressure cuts because your whole body is ripping and tearing with major muscle groups. One can drive all of their weight behind a hard stab leading with the point in RGEI that keeps your arms along your center line and rip/tear/cut as you press your way through to...........daylight......escape. Toast to the backwards knifers. Oh Doc your balance with all the Kung Fu training is duly noted. Sorry for the ramble. I will get back on topic on my next post. This is only a preference to some who enjoy the

[stonyman]

You know guys, I feel drawn into this, regardless it will be misunderstood. Those that have a certain degree of training and experience can understand the makeup of what RGEI offers and does not. I happen to be a stickler(wow, stick'em)for footwork which transitions to superior positioning. Limited spacing, okay, body maneuvering. Look at guys like Ray,Narc, people get too caught up in the wrong thing. Watch there footwork, their base/core is balanced, they are always ready to attack continuously.........never off balance. Q up kalig's vids.Watch his footwork, lowered base! Standing,kneeling, ground work. Many believe this thing that they will just cut and run or stand and exchange. Since when do we live in a perfect world? Two people face-off whistle blows and two square off with blades, guns etc. Maybe, not usually. I train it all....at least as much as I can. So if I take the so called limited RGEI grip with superior footwork and with the most dog nasty desire to make it home to my family. You get a guy who will use whatever it takes to win, not be partial to status quo. It is amazing what a hard jab to the face opens up..........Joe spot on with the distance and the logic behind it. It is a big difference fighting someone to win a mutual scrap as oppose to someone who really wants to Kill you! I speak from the latter, that is what shapes my empty hand, knife and gun training. You can cut, jab,stab in RGEI? As you close the movements are more compressed. Major pressure cuts because your whole body is ripping and tearing with major muscle groups. One can drive all of their weight behind a hard stab leading with the point in RGEI that keeps your arms along your center line and rip/tear/cut as you press your way through to...........daylight......escape. Toast to the backwards knifers. Oh Doc your balance with all the Kung Fu training is duly noted. Sorry for the ramble. I will get back on topic on my next post. This is only a preference to some who enjoy the

[stonyman]

For those who like the virtues of RGEI........Hey guys........Get a Grip, will ya!LOL :D

[Dr. Snubnose]

For those who like the virtues of RGEI........Hey guys........Get a Grip, will ya!LOL :D

I know the guy!!! Basically he's saying...open another thread...LOL..Doc :D

[psychophipps]

Now that I've gone off half-cocked and spouted my overbearing, opinionated bit, I wish to backpedal a bit. There is certainly excellence to be found with all knife methodologies, don't get me wrong on this point. To say that I'm quite interested in having a chance to give the MBC methodology a whirl is an understatement.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this excellent discussion. :cool:

[Michael Rigg]

Not much of a poster here, but I thought that I would throw my 2 cents in.

A lot of interesting discussion here, but perhaps we are focusing on a specific tool (RGEI knife) and the tactics to support that tool as opposed to the bigger self-defense picture.

First, I am a certified instructor in MBC and it's related curricula. I have been private student of Mike Janich's for more than ten years, so I have a particular bias. I do not consider myself a knife fighter, but I have developed a strong skill set in the use of small folding knives, sticks and empty hands in personal protection applications.

2edgesword is also a certified MBC instructor so perhaps he has a certain bias as well.

One thought that occurs to me is when discussing tactics and techniques is defining specifically whether we are talking about self-defense/personal protection using a knife, or using a knife to attack and injure another person. The tools are essentially the same, but the intent and the tactics are quite different. I think that we can all agree that we need to understand common (and not so common) attacks, and the attacker and his/her intent. We study the tactics and techniques of the bad guys so that we might train, and be prepared when we are faced with a situation that we cannot escape from.

I am a private citizen. I have only one responsibility in a self-defense/personal protection situation, and that is to minimize damage to myself (or those in my charge), decisively stop my attacker(s) and escape to safety. For me personally, any techniques and tactics that do not directly support this, are superfluous.

In MBC we focus primarily on standard grip (pointy bit out the thumb side of your hand) tactics for a number of reasons, but primarily because we believe that this grip gives us the most flexibility across multiple ranges, and multiple angles of application. We do train in reverse grip, but our focus is on edge out, again because we are looking for maximum flexibility across many angles of application. These reverse grip skills also translate easily and effectively to the use of improvised weapons. We train in, and to defend against reverse grip because they are extremely difficult attacks to deal with.

One thing that we don't do in MBC is fight the other guys fight. We want to understand the other guys fight, but we have a plan, and want to work our plan on the other guy.

There are many excellent blade and close combat instructors in the world, and many effective and interesting styles of fighting, and self-defense. More than enough to train everybody who gets off the couch. I made my choice along time ago, I believe that I chose well.

Training time is a precious commodity for me, I and prefer to focus my time and attention on training practical tactics, and techniques that I can pull off under extreme duress. I believe that this is the essence of Martial Blade Concepts, and it is why I was drawn to it.

Do come and train with us when you can.

Best regards,

Mike

[Dr. Snubnose]

Not much of a poster here, but I thought that I would throw my 2 cents in.

A lot of interesting discussion here, but perhaps we are focusing on a specific tool (RGEI knife) and the tactics to support that tool as opposed to the bigger self-defense picture.

First, I am a certified instructor in MBC and it's related curricula. I have been private student of Mike Janich's for more than ten years, so I have a particular bias. I do not consider myself a knife fighter, but I have developed a strong skill set in the use of small folding knives, sticks and empty hands in personal protection applications.

2edgesword is also a certified MBC instructor so perhaps he has a certain bias as well.

One thought that occurs to me is when discussing tactics and techniques is defining specifically whether we are talking about self-defense/personal protection using a knife, or using a knife to attack and injure another person. The tools are essentially the same, but the intent and the tactics are quite different. I think that we can all agree that we need to understand common (and not so common) attacks, and the attacker and his/her intent. We study the tactics and techniques of the bad guys so that we might train, and be prepared when we are faced with a situation that we cannot escape from.

I am a private citizen. I have only one responsibility in a self-defense/personal protection situation, and that is to minimize damage to myself (or those in my charge), decisively stop my attacker(s) and escape to safety. For me personally, any techniques and tactics that do not directly support this, are superfluous.

In MBC we focus primarily on standard grip (pointy bit out the thumb side of your hand) tactics for a number of reasons, but primarily because we believe that this grip gives us the most flexibility across multiple ranges, and multiple angles of application. We do train in reverse grip, but our focus is on edge out, again because we are looking for maximum flexibility across many angles of application. These reverse grip skills also translate easily and effectively to the use of improvised weapons. We train in, and to defend against reverse grip because they are extremely difficult attacks to deal with.

One thing that we don't do in MBC is fight the other guys fight. We want to understand the other guys fight, but we have a plan, and want to work our plan on the other guy.

There are many excellent blade and close combat instructors in the world, and many effective and interesting styles of fighting, and self-defense. More than enough to train everybody who gets off the couch. I made my choice along time ago, I believe that I chose well.

Training time is a precious commodity for me, I and prefer to focus my time and attention on training practical tactics, and techniques that I can pull off under extreme duress. I believe that this is the essence of Martial Blade Concepts, and it is why I was drawn to it.

Do come and train with us when you can.

Best regards,

Mike

Ay Mike, Good Post, and I think everyone here respects and admires the MBC techniques and Michael Janich for it's development. And as a certified instructor in his program you have every right to be bias. That being said the OP was really asking about grip preferences rather than which style of fighting was better for self-defense. But I guess they kinda go hand in hand...I too train in forward grip, teach forward grip, but also train and teach all the other grips as well. Giving my students the ability to choose what is right for them. I have a particular preference for RGEI and Out. I have trained in it for many years. I think many of the statements you make about about tactics and strategies are applicable to many different grip styles and self-defense in general. I do not think MBC techniques has the monopoly on defensible tactics. In the courtroom anything put in one's hands used against another will be construed as a weapon. If you are in your right to defend yourself and can articulate your actions or reactions taken to defend yourself, I think it matters less what technique or style or grip one uses. With regards to RGEI, to think of it as a prison based methodology or label it that way is faulty thinking by some. To think of it as another grip position to hold a knife, that can be combined with defensive tactics, that one can use to defend themselves rather than always thinking of it as something used to attack others is more correct. I think basically there is no right correct answer to what is best...It seems what is best, is that which the individual feels is best for him. So bottom line is train and study all the different grip positions and styles of defense with a knife, make your own decision....what feels right...usually is right for you.....and remember when SHTF you will react as you were trained....so make sure you and your training does work during high stress situations, If it does then you found what is right for you ...keep training and refining and then train some more..... Doc :D

[stonyman]

Hey guys, this will be brief. Kudos to anyone that gets off the couch and takes their personal safety......PERSONAL! I think many misconstrue the usage of a weapon and the courts. I was just involved in a case where a lady with no knife training, but strong intentions, used a knife and killed her boyfriend. The case was not contingent upon what type of knife was used. It was contingent upon whether the force in which she used was warranted given the circumstance. The second you pull a blade and use it....you are looking at Agg battery with a deadly weapon. Attemted Murder etc. Not how you cut or what you chose to cut with. Now, which type comes into play if the weapon or knife was an illegal one. I just think that in the total scheme of SD I just caution people going into a life and death situation and leaving things to chance. I happen to be an advocate of the RGEI and RGEO, FGEU and down. Oh and I cannot wait until the Yo 2 comes out and I like Bowles which by the way works with backward knifing also. Doc, I think from this thread alone we have multiple new ones to start. Virtues of RGEI. Mindset to tackle the issues of SD and the blade and more. Between MJ(happy that you are here Sir!) and many of you others here are quite knowledgable it would bring great food for thought, which is a good thing. Mr. Riggs welcome and twoedgesword, you guys are to be commeneded because I am sure you train your butts off! Take care all and God Bless!

[stonyman]

Oops! That was not as brief! :eek: :o

[Dr. Snubnose]

Oops! That was not as brief! :eek: :o

Hey brief enough!...Get A Grip Now! Will ya!!!.....Doc :p

[Joe Talmadge]

Thanks Michael, very thoughtful. A couple of comments --

One thought that occurs to me is when discussing tactics and techniques is defining specifically whether we are talking about self-defense/personal protection using a knife, or using a knife to attack and injure another person. The tools are essentially the same, but the intent and the tactics are quite different.

A quibble on this -- tools are the same, intent is very different.. but are tactics necessarily "quite different"? Let's take knives out of the equation. If a bad guy has a gun and tries to shoot you, there's a good chance he's shooting for COM. If a good guy is forced to fire in defense of his life, there's a good chance he's shooting COM. Exact same tactic. Now, the good guy has a lot of other things he might be doing while he's shooting COM that the bad guy is not -- he might be moving off the X, making better use of cover, switching to a failure-to-stop protocol if the situation demands it, etc. But COM is a tactic both are using because it works, nearly to the point of being a requirement for success, whether you're the good guy or bad. This example will become important below.

I am a private citizen. I have only one responsibility in a self-defense/personal protection situation, and that is to minimize damage to myself (or those in my charge), decisively stop my attacker(s) and escape to safety. For me personally, any techniques and tactics that do not directly support this, are superfluous.

Moreover, I personally will use the minimal amount of force necessary to assure a good outcome for myself, even if the law allows more (a "castle doctrine", for example, might allow me to fire in cases my personal morals would not).

One thing that we don't do in MBC is fight the other guys fight. We want to understand the other guys fight, but we have a plan, and want to work our plan on the other guy.

That's a good point, but you really need to keep it in perspective. A good guy who is shooting COM is not fighting the other guy's fight, even though bad guys do it too. The good guy is merely using a tactic that gives the highest probability of prevailing, hopefully doing it better because of training, and using other techniques and tactics to make it more effective. Similarly, the techniques of someone like Southnarc are not even remotely fighting the bad guy's fight, in my perspective -- but they do adopt the most proven techniques, and surround them with other techniques and tactics to give the trained defender the edge, and ultimately the highest chance of going home.

I realize that by definition the choice of MBC means you disagree about the effectiveness of those tactics -- I think they're by far the most proven, you think you have better tactics. That's okay, civil disagreement and debate is good. Maybe I'm just reading too much into your statement, but wanted to make sure you weren't implying the typical RGEI tactics were necessarily fighting the other guy's fight (especially since it's unlikely the other guy has a knife in the first place!).

Joe

PS I only trained with Mike Janich once, but really loved it, and it's that class that made me transition from beginner dabbler to really serious student for a number of years. Even though I ultimately came to different conclusions, I have the highest respect for the man.

[Qship]

The problem with edge in, reverse grip (pikal) is that it is hard to cut an attacker's arm when he strikes. That's because the back of your blade is toward his wrist. Right hand against right hand, you might be able to hook over his wrist, but that gets you the back of his arm, not the inside of his wrist where the radial artery and the tendons holding the knife hand closed are located.

If you get nose to nose, and bury your knife in his body, his knife hand may well be free, and you are certainly in range. Unlike disconnecting muscles and tendons, attacks to the body are not always instantaneously incapacitating. That may not work out well for you.

I have seen a knife disarm where the palm slams the back of a blade in pikal grip. This drives the edge of the knife back toward the wrist. When the hand pushing the knife grabs the wrist, it forces the edge into flesh. It takes someone much, much better than I am to pull it off. But, finding someone much, much better than I am is not a big problem.

Against an unarmed opponent, pikal grip may be the method of choice.

Qship

[Joe Talmadge]

The problem with edge in, reverse grip (pikal) is that it is hard to cut an attacker's arm when he strikes. That's because the back of your blade is toward his wrist. Right hand against right hand, you might be able to hook over his wrist, but that gets you the back of his arm, not the inside of his wrist where the radial artery and the tendons holding the knife hand closed are located.

Two quick comments: first, it appears to me that what you're doing is imagining what would happen if you used RGEO tactics, but were holding the knife RGEI. RGEI, you'd be using other, more effective (we believe) tactics. Apologies if you're not making this mistake, but it sure feels like it. It's happened about 4 times in this thread already ... who have you trained with for RGEI techniques?

Secondly, all this talk about his "knife hand". We're talking self defense, and more often than not that means an attacker not armed with a knife -- though obviously knife-on-knife happens and should be prepared for, there's no reason to necessarily assume comparably-armed individuals. Defender has a knife -- attacker(s) may or may not, but probably doesn't, though he/they may have other weapons.

[2edgesword]

2edgesword is also a certified MBC instructor so perhaps he has a certain bias as well.

A "certain bias" may be a little understating of the situation :) . Good post Mike.

As you stated, while I think we all agree that stopping the attack as quickly and efficiently as possible is our goal if attacked but how we get there and the method we use may be different.

psychophipps

You mentioned a certain type of attack and means of defense. You also mentioned that you're 6'2" 200+ lbs. George (Mercop) is a strapping 6'3" 230 lbs (I'm being gracious George if you're reading this). Size does matter and typically you guys have the laws of physics working in your favor in the "cannonballing" scenario you described.

On the other hand at 5'6" and 155 lbs I am going to be doing everything possible to avoid a "crash" with most attackers since force on force typically puts me at a serious disadvantage. I will be slashing, moving, evading while taking the targets he gives me (typically the limb wielding a weapon), attempting to take that weapon out of the fight via damaging the limb wielding it or the legs that support the attacker and provide him with the mobility required to continue the attack.

We will have to agree to disagree, but in my opinion starting at a familiar place, improving and fine tuning what has become natural and instinctive, is the most efficient means of increasing the proficiency of a person trying to learn how to use an edged weapon as a self-defense tool.

[psychophipps]

You mentioned a certain type of attack and means of defense. You also mentioned that you're 6'2" 200+ lbs. George (Mercop) is a strapping 6'3" 230 lbs (I'm being gracious George if you're reading this). Size does matter and typically you guys have the laws of physics working in your favor in the "cannonballing" scenario you described.

On the other hand at 5'6" and 155 lbs I am going to be doing everything possible to avoid a "crash" with most attackers since force on force typically puts me at a serious disadvantage. I will be slashing, moving, evading while taking the targets he gives me (typically the limb wielding a weapon), attempting to take that weapon out of the fight via damaging the limb wielding it or the legs that support the attacker and provide him with the mobility required to continue the attack.

Makes perfect sense to me, sir. :)

One thing to keep in mind is that raw velocity, correct body mechanics, and plain ol' viciousness makes all the difference in the world. That 5' 2" middle-aged female used to "cannonball" me just dandy despite the 90+ pounds and 12" of height "disadvantage". The "cannonball" descriptor simply means a blitzing continual forward pressure, not WWE Powerbombs, neck slams, and the like you see from the steroid crowd.

I'm quite a bit more fluffy than buff, I'm afraid...

[Dr. Snubnose]

I'm 5"7 (almost, cause I'm shrinking by the day LOL) and a whopping 138lbs....I have no problem "crashing" in....with the proper footwork, intent, and determination, it's rather easy to do, as long as I can do it from a position of safety...I'll go for it...Maybe it's the 30 lbs. of extra equipment I wear that gives me some momentum.....none of my training partners seem to like my "blitzkrieg" Doc :D