Spyderco vs Custom knife
Spyderco vs Custom knife
I am a loyal Spyderco fan but have not yet owned a custom made Folder such as a Chris Reeve, etc. I know they can be very cool looking with exotic wood inlays and graphics but are they really that much better than the higher end Spydercos? I rotate several Spydercos through my EDC lineup and now all but ignore any other knives I have. I just wonder if these higher end knives are really worth owning. Any opinions?
jjmc2001 - I am a big Spyderco fan, my collector number is 108 and I am always seeking out the limited addition or rare Spydies (12 pink, almite or cf crickets, etc...)MY BRAD DUNCAN WHIPLASH is as smooth as smooth can be, as is my Alan Elishewitz or Bob Terzuola. The smaller the production the more refined and tuned the knife becomes. As for CR knives most of his are production knives albeit high end. RR
Edited by - rico on 5/3/2002 12:25:08 PM
Edited by - rico on 5/3/2002 12:25:08 PM
Some 2-3 years ago, I asked the same question at the Blade Forum. Back then, I was a complete newbie (I suppose I still am <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> ).
There is no simple answer to this enigma. However, this are the facts:
1. A custom knife is most often a knife designed and manufactured to your personal liking.
2. You are the sole owner of this knife.
3. You have a special agreement with the maker
4. You'll always have #1
Now, those were the pro's. There are also some cons:
1. The fact that you are the sole owner of a knife manufactured by your own specs makes it very "your own" and maybe not too desirable to other collectors.
2. If the custom maker is not very known, the value of this knife is questionable.
3. If the maker <b>is </b> known, the knife will most certainly be very expensive (for a price of a single custom you may get a whole series of a production run, which may be even more desirable)
So ...........take a pick
Spyderco Collectors Club Member #57
There is no simple answer to this enigma. However, this are the facts:
1. A custom knife is most often a knife designed and manufactured to your personal liking.
2. You are the sole owner of this knife.
3. You have a special agreement with the maker
4. You'll always have #1
Now, those were the pro's. There are also some cons:
1. The fact that you are the sole owner of a knife manufactured by your own specs makes it very "your own" and maybe not too desirable to other collectors.
2. If the custom maker is not very known, the value of this knife is questionable.
3. If the maker <b>is </b> known, the knife will most certainly be very expensive (for a price of a single custom you may get a whole series of a production run, which may be even more desirable)
So ...........take a pick
Spyderco Collectors Club Member #57
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java
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jjmc2001,
I own a custom Theuns Prinsloo Mini-Hunter, a Darrel Ralph damascus folder, and a Don Parrish Custom Hunter and would never consider putting them through the paces I do with my Spydies. They have their place and it’s in a case – locked down under glass. To me, it's a matter of aesthetics when it comes to ownership. Each of my higher end knives has a character of its own that is flavored by the degree of craftsmanship and choice of exotic materials used in the crafting of the knife. Some of the high end knives are considered art knives so the question of value can become one of taste, uniqueness, or financial appreciation to the collector.
High end folders like the Sebenza, Ufaami, et al are effectively limited or “custom” production blades. I myself would hesitate before using one of these as I do my EDC <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s. Performance-wise, I know many collectors who swear by their daily use. Check out Bladeforums.com and you may be surprised at the number of say Chris Reeve users. For me, the entry fee for one of these babies is too rich to use as an EDC.
The higher end <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>cos, and I refer to knives like the C27 Jess Horn and other “production custom collaborations” combine aesthetics with pure functionality. I would pit my Viele, Zowada, Chinook, or Shabaria against any of the higher end production customs for usefulness and durability and walk away a happy man knowing I paid much less for equal or better quality. Plus if I wanted eye-catching appearance, I could jet them off to Santa Fe Stoneworks or any number of scrimshandlers, engravers, or custom scale workers for a knock-out blade. But then I wouldn’t use it as an EDC.
In short, it’s a matter of personal preference and what you can afford. I love my customs – they’re lovely to look at and handle occasional – but I trust my life to <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>co. Hope this helps.
Stay safe! Stay Sharp!
Edited by - java on 5/3/2002 1:15:59 PM
I own a custom Theuns Prinsloo Mini-Hunter, a Darrel Ralph damascus folder, and a Don Parrish Custom Hunter and would never consider putting them through the paces I do with my Spydies. They have their place and it’s in a case – locked down under glass. To me, it's a matter of aesthetics when it comes to ownership. Each of my higher end knives has a character of its own that is flavored by the degree of craftsmanship and choice of exotic materials used in the crafting of the knife. Some of the high end knives are considered art knives so the question of value can become one of taste, uniqueness, or financial appreciation to the collector.
High end folders like the Sebenza, Ufaami, et al are effectively limited or “custom” production blades. I myself would hesitate before using one of these as I do my EDC <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s. Performance-wise, I know many collectors who swear by their daily use. Check out Bladeforums.com and you may be surprised at the number of say Chris Reeve users. For me, the entry fee for one of these babies is too rich to use as an EDC.
The higher end <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>cos, and I refer to knives like the C27 Jess Horn and other “production custom collaborations” combine aesthetics with pure functionality. I would pit my Viele, Zowada, Chinook, or Shabaria against any of the higher end production customs for usefulness and durability and walk away a happy man knowing I paid much less for equal or better quality. Plus if I wanted eye-catching appearance, I could jet them off to Santa Fe Stoneworks or any number of scrimshandlers, engravers, or custom scale workers for a knock-out blade. But then I wouldn’t use it as an EDC.
In short, it’s a matter of personal preference and what you can afford. I love my customs – they’re lovely to look at and handle occasional – but I trust my life to <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>co. Hope this helps.
Stay safe! Stay Sharp!
Edited by - java on 5/3/2002 1:15:59 PM
Java - Bladeforums maintains that Sebenza's are production knives, I agree with them. Everyone who has massaged my Duncan Whiplash wants one. The built for aspect of any knive is marginal when it comes to form and functionality. Yes, I reqiested special scales and anodizing - but those are all cosmetic. Thanks rr
Interesting question I´m still undecided on.
First, technically custom and handmade is a difference often confused.
Second, I own a number of handmade and some custom (built to my specs) blades. I also use them. I only own two handmade folders, a Chris Reeve decorated large Sebbie (Bg42) -ok, might be a "small-scale production", whatever- , and a large Kit Carson Mod 4 (440V). I use them both as an EDC. Both are above the Spydie fit&finish, and have performed satisfying as an EDC folder.
But I don´t use my handmade/custom folders quite as I´d use production blades. Don´t know about the reason (it´s not mainly financial). Maybe it´s because they have such refined design and execution that I don´t want to "disturb" that by beating them hard. I respect fine tools, and treat them accordingly. Probably it´s the more refined, the more respect, the more careful use.
I always have a Spydie, Benchmade or Victorinox at hand for tasks I consider not appropriate for a "fine" tool (no disrespect to these companies, they produce great knives for the asking price, especially Spyderco :D ).
But there´s also handmade/customs who scream to be used, Fred Perrin´s handmade knives for example.
Whatever, I think it´s a question of knife philosophy mostly.
Edited by - judge on 5/3/2002 6:01:29 PM
First, technically custom and handmade is a difference often confused.
Second, I own a number of handmade and some custom (built to my specs) blades. I also use them. I only own two handmade folders, a Chris Reeve decorated large Sebbie (Bg42) -ok, might be a "small-scale production", whatever- , and a large Kit Carson Mod 4 (440V). I use them both as an EDC. Both are above the Spydie fit&finish, and have performed satisfying as an EDC folder.
But I don´t use my handmade/custom folders quite as I´d use production blades. Don´t know about the reason (it´s not mainly financial). Maybe it´s because they have such refined design and execution that I don´t want to "disturb" that by beating them hard. I respect fine tools, and treat them accordingly. Probably it´s the more refined, the more respect, the more careful use.
I always have a Spydie, Benchmade or Victorinox at hand for tasks I consider not appropriate for a "fine" tool (no disrespect to these companies, they produce great knives for the asking price, especially Spyderco :D ).
But there´s also handmade/customs who scream to be used, Fred Perrin´s handmade knives for example.
Whatever, I think it´s a question of knife philosophy mostly.
Edited by - judge on 5/3/2002 6:01:29 PM
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kraziekurtis
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Well the easiest way to go about this, is to get the best of both worlds! To do this, get a Frank Recupero Cricket. Man...I just enter a daze when I think of them <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
they can be found at <a href="http://www.bladeart.com">BladeArt</a> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Edited by - kraziekurtis on 5/3/2002 7:45:46 PM
they can be found at <a href="http://www.bladeart.com">BladeArt</a> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Edited by - kraziekurtis on 5/3/2002 7:45:46 PM
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java
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Rico,
You'll get no argument from me on that point - most of the Chris Reeve knives in the field are production knives. The term custom is applied far too loosely on a large segment of production and even limited edition knives. Judge made a valid point and brought another well hashed debate on the terms custom vice handmade knives. But does passing along your custom knife to another collector who doesn't buy into your specs automatically then make it a mere handmade knife? Suppose I rescale my Viele with semiprecious stones inlayed in my own design - do I then have a custom knife, a custom handled knife, or my own handmade handled knife? Semantics can be interesting.
I like your comment on the built for aspect of any knive being marginal when it comes to form and functionality and only differ if you are allowed to choose specific steels to suit your requirements. Good words from the Metroplex on an interesting topic!
Rico, my man, you ARE the Cricket Master! I have, until this post, secretly lusted after your Almite and pink Crickets. Wondering if you might make trhe High Caliber Show at Will Rogers on the 25 & 26 of this month.
KK: Frank's work is stunning! Those babies would be classified as superbly customized productions! Good eye, young man!
Stay safe! Stay sharp! <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
You'll get no argument from me on that point - most of the Chris Reeve knives in the field are production knives. The term custom is applied far too loosely on a large segment of production and even limited edition knives. Judge made a valid point and brought another well hashed debate on the terms custom vice handmade knives. But does passing along your custom knife to another collector who doesn't buy into your specs automatically then make it a mere handmade knife? Suppose I rescale my Viele with semiprecious stones inlayed in my own design - do I then have a custom knife, a custom handled knife, or my own handmade handled knife? Semantics can be interesting.
I like your comment on the built for aspect of any knive being marginal when it comes to form and functionality and only differ if you are allowed to choose specific steels to suit your requirements. Good words from the Metroplex on an interesting topic!
Rico, my man, you ARE the Cricket Master! I have, until this post, secretly lusted after your Almite and pink Crickets. Wondering if you might make trhe High Caliber Show at Will Rogers on the 25 & 26 of this month.
KK: Frank's work is stunning! Those babies would be classified as superbly customized productions! Good eye, young man!
Stay safe! Stay sharp! <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
JAVA - I just picked up 2 more Crickets a Pink and a Ying Yang. I will try to make thae FT Worth show. In terms of fit and function. Changing the scales is like going to Maaco for a new paint job. The Action, Form and Fit are the main concerns in handmade knives. email me at enrico@ticnet.com about the show. Rico
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sam the man..
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Hey DePaul! Congrats on the 300th post dude! I totally agree with your views on custom knives.. That is a true definition of a custom piece! <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Well, I'm sure you guys own a custom-collaborated Spydie. At least one in your collection. These "designer" knives, in my humble opinion, are as good as the custom-made ones, if not, better! Spyderco had made it really affordable for the end line users to own a Spydie which has fit, finish and quality of a custom-made knife. You can see the vast improvements from the day the C-15 and C-19 had hit the shelves.. This custom-collaboration trend had also influenced other knife manufacturers to start their own range of premium folders.. Thanks to Spyderco, you can actually own affordable designer knives like the CRKT Crawford, M-16, Ryan model 7 and the list goes on.. <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Sam
have bone implant will travel..
Well, I'm sure you guys own a custom-collaborated Spydie. At least one in your collection. These "designer" knives, in my humble opinion, are as good as the custom-made ones, if not, better! Spyderco had made it really affordable for the end line users to own a Spydie which has fit, finish and quality of a custom-made knife. You can see the vast improvements from the day the C-15 and C-19 had hit the shelves.. This custom-collaboration trend had also influenced other knife manufacturers to start their own range of premium folders.. Thanks to Spyderco, you can actually own affordable designer knives like the CRKT Crawford, M-16, Ryan model 7 and the list goes on.. <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0><img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Sam
have bone implant will travel..
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Blade Santa Cruz
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<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s are terrific values; I don't mind scratching up my edc knife at the price. High-end factory knives like sebenzas are beautiful pieces. I have one or two, but they don't get carried much except for special occasions. I also have a few customs from Kit Carson and Darrel Ralph. If you love beautiful worksmanship and flawless execution, you have to love these knives. But They are also more looked at than used. It's a hobby thing versus a practical knife thing. My PE Military in my pocket is kept hair-popping sharp and has cut through a pile of plastic, cardboard, paper, wood, vine-growth, you-name-it. It has more than its share of scratches. But it's a part of me in way the customs are not.
Spyderco designs and manufacturing quality are certainly influenced by the custom world.
Al Mar began the "trend" back in the mid '70's when he tried to create a custom quality production knife. His influence was also from the custom makers.
To try to compare whether or not Spyderco (or any other production knife) is "as good" as a custom really has to be broken up into diffeent classifications.
Customs can be fine tuned by hand, difficult in a production knife.
Production knives will often have closer tolerances than customs becuase of the CNC equipment currently available.
Customs can have embellishments that might not be practical on a production model.
Customs have a personality and a relationship with the maker, often not possible on factory products.
Factories, making the same models over and over by the thousands can refine and improve details as a result of ELU feedback. Custom makers do not make enough of a particular model to get that kind of feedback.
Customs will often have exotic steels that are not used in factory pieces. A piece of S90V at $15/lb and 3 hrs of labor to turn it into a blade, as compared to a piece of AUS-8 at $6/lb and 1.5 hrs to turn it into a blade. The custom maker can charge enough to make up the cost, the factory has a difficult time doing that.
Customs are often not used much and rarely abused, so they are really not tested to the max like factory pieces.
These are just some of the comparisons that are really not apples and apples when making the comparison.
sal
Al Mar began the "trend" back in the mid '70's when he tried to create a custom quality production knife. His influence was also from the custom makers.
To try to compare whether or not Spyderco (or any other production knife) is "as good" as a custom really has to be broken up into diffeent classifications.
Customs can be fine tuned by hand, difficult in a production knife.
Production knives will often have closer tolerances than customs becuase of the CNC equipment currently available.
Customs can have embellishments that might not be practical on a production model.
Customs have a personality and a relationship with the maker, often not possible on factory products.
Factories, making the same models over and over by the thousands can refine and improve details as a result of ELU feedback. Custom makers do not make enough of a particular model to get that kind of feedback.
Customs will often have exotic steels that are not used in factory pieces. A piece of S90V at $15/lb and 3 hrs of labor to turn it into a blade, as compared to a piece of AUS-8 at $6/lb and 1.5 hrs to turn it into a blade. The custom maker can charge enough to make up the cost, the factory has a difficult time doing that.
Customs are often not used much and rarely abused, so they are really not tested to the max like factory pieces.
These are just some of the comparisons that are really not apples and apples when making the comparison.
sal
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John Watson
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Well the way I see it is if you want to spend the money on a custom knife why not use it. And by use it I don't necessarily mean abuse it. Knives are made for cutting and aren't good pyr bars. People have no problem buying $800 to $1500 pisols and shooting them every weekend. They don't mind getting into their $25,000 SUV and taking it on the road chancing a collision. Then why not use, for it's intended purposes, a knife that costs under or around a thousand dollars.
I have collected knives and guns for years. Not that any were antiques mind you, but eveything I buy, I buy with the intent to use and enjoy. What is the sence of owning something fine if all you do is look at it.
Just my opinion. Buy, use, enjoy. ;-)
I have collected knives and guns for years. Not that any were antiques mind you, but eveything I buy, I buy with the intent to use and enjoy. What is the sence of owning something fine if all you do is look at it.
Just my opinion. Buy, use, enjoy. ;-)
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java
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Sal,
Welcome once again to the Alpha Arachnid!
I feel we've blurred the definition of custom knife here on this post, as have other manufacturers with their "custom" claims. As I browse through J Weyers "Knives: Points of Interest" the one common denominator seems to be that of uniqueness. Whether knives are made to a single customer's spec and unique to that one customer or designed at the makers whims and abilities they are "One of a Kind". I had raised the issue of transferability of the custom moniker but just because the blade changes ownership, I don't feel that changes its uniqueness. Custom steels, despite their cost, can and are used in production blades and the manufacturer recoups his cost through the limited production or limited collaboration run ala Delta Z's Darrell Ralph Limited Damascus Osprey.
Agreed, most customs are not put through the everyday rigors of production knives. My Prinsloos will never touch a 1" rope for testing or skin the occasional downed gazelle or springbok, as they were designed for, of their homeland. But they are hair poppin' crispy fried scary razor sharp and would depillitate a wart-hog just by looking at it. We are comparing apples to oranges to kiwis. An expensive custom is both an art knife at one end and a beater EDC by those with the funds to match their requirements.
Customs can be great matter separators or they can live in a literal glass house. Your points regarding performance speak true. The tolerances achieved through CAD/CAM and CNC machining truly put modern production knives a cut above. Despite the makers claims, I don’t think there is a custom folder out there that can match a modern production folder for tolerance. Performance wise, Sal…I’d match any Spyderco to any custom, any day of the week.
We can add embellishments, change scales, file-work or anodize production knives through aftermarket manufacturers or at home through the DIY method and they’ll be customized to our heart’s content. Does this make them custom knives? I don’t really believe so.
Have we solved this debate?? Again I don’t really believe so. Apples to apples or apples to oranges - someday someone finds an apple with Elvis’ profile and facial characteristics. Now that’s a custom! It makes the National Enquirer and we all secretly wish we had found such a unique creation. Therein lies its appeal and its claim to be custom. It is above the all lowly Winesaps, Goldens, Jonathans, and Rome Beauties unique among all apples.
Stay safe! Stay sharp! <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
PS: Glasshartt: Until some comes along with that replicator you’re wishing for.! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Cherish the custom Shawn as long as ye can, lass..<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Re Edit: Man, what I wouldn't give for a good spell or grammar check sometimes! Sorry.
Edited by - java on 5/26/2002 11:21:12 AM
Edited by - Java on 5/26/2002 11:25:04 AM
Welcome once again to the Alpha Arachnid!
I feel we've blurred the definition of custom knife here on this post, as have other manufacturers with their "custom" claims. As I browse through J Weyers "Knives: Points of Interest" the one common denominator seems to be that of uniqueness. Whether knives are made to a single customer's spec and unique to that one customer or designed at the makers whims and abilities they are "One of a Kind". I had raised the issue of transferability of the custom moniker but just because the blade changes ownership, I don't feel that changes its uniqueness. Custom steels, despite their cost, can and are used in production blades and the manufacturer recoups his cost through the limited production or limited collaboration run ala Delta Z's Darrell Ralph Limited Damascus Osprey.
Agreed, most customs are not put through the everyday rigors of production knives. My Prinsloos will never touch a 1" rope for testing or skin the occasional downed gazelle or springbok, as they were designed for, of their homeland. But they are hair poppin' crispy fried scary razor sharp and would depillitate a wart-hog just by looking at it. We are comparing apples to oranges to kiwis. An expensive custom is both an art knife at one end and a beater EDC by those with the funds to match their requirements.
Customs can be great matter separators or they can live in a literal glass house. Your points regarding performance speak true. The tolerances achieved through CAD/CAM and CNC machining truly put modern production knives a cut above. Despite the makers claims, I don’t think there is a custom folder out there that can match a modern production folder for tolerance. Performance wise, Sal…I’d match any Spyderco to any custom, any day of the week.
We can add embellishments, change scales, file-work or anodize production knives through aftermarket manufacturers or at home through the DIY method and they’ll be customized to our heart’s content. Does this make them custom knives? I don’t really believe so.
Have we solved this debate?? Again I don’t really believe so. Apples to apples or apples to oranges - someday someone finds an apple with Elvis’ profile and facial characteristics. Now that’s a custom! It makes the National Enquirer and we all secretly wish we had found such a unique creation. Therein lies its appeal and its claim to be custom. It is above the all lowly Winesaps, Goldens, Jonathans, and Rome Beauties unique among all apples.
Stay safe! Stay sharp! <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
PS: Glasshartt: Until some comes along with that replicator you’re wishing for.! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Cherish the custom Shawn as long as ye can, lass..<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Re Edit: Man, what I wouldn't give for a good spell or grammar check sometimes! Sorry.
Edited by - java on 5/26/2002 11:21:12 AM
Edited by - Java on 5/26/2002 11:25:04 AM