Best tactical knife?

[MyNameIsJoe]

I am just asking opinions on this....What would you consider the best folding knife for use as a weapon ONLY? It does not need to have any use as a tool. Also, pretend there are no blade length restrictions, but it must be a folder. Pretend your edc would consist of this and a delica, persistence, caly 3, or something similar to that. I am asking this mainly as advice for "no gun" cities or areas. Thanks

[demtek9]

The Civilian...only good for cuttin people.

http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=60

[The Mentaculous]

Probably Police 3 G-10, Civilian or Chinook are the most obvious choices. Military, Paramilitary and Endura also come to mind. The Stretch 2 and Manix 2 would probably be sufficient too, considering the locked-in ergonomics and blade length of 3.5 inches. Overall, for pure "tactical" use though, the big folders like Police 3 and Civilian are the best current production, and the Chinook and Large C95 Manix are the best disco'd ones I can think of.

[Dr. Snubnose]

I'm assuming you mean Spyderco as this is posted in the main forum...No Doubt about it and I'm gonna be emphatic about it...The Yojimbo and the Ronin are the Best of the Best...as a weapon....there are others that are good like the Waved Endura, Mas Ayoob, Chinook I and II, Adventura, some will say the Gunting & P'kal (if you are trained to use it)....I would agree...The Ronin IMHO is the best of the best in it's blade size, slicing ability and penetration, user friendly in many grip positions...you do your part and the knife won't let you down.....Yes I know the Ronin is a fixed blade....so if it is a folder you need I'd choose the next best thing the Yojimbo..
FWIW: The Civilian is a very specialized knife for SD...It is almost impossible to stab anything with one and the tip is fragile....as a self defense tool for slicing your way to safety it will do the job...I would only consider it a limited functional weapon.....Doc :)

[redhawk44357]

Warrior, saw mikes video on this knife and its definately a kick butt knife.

[chuck_roxas45]

I am just asking opinions on this....What would you consider the best folding knife for use as a weapon ONLY? It does not need to have any use as a tool. Also, pretend there are no blade length restrictions, but it must be a folder. Pretend your edc would consist of this and a delica, persistence, caly 3, or something similar to that. I am asking this mainly as advice for "no gun" cities or areas. Thanks

Warrior, saw mikes video on this knife and its definately a kick butt knife.

I think the OP is asking about a folding knife.

[unit]

Anything you have when you need it ALONG WITH YOUR TRAINING is going to trump the "better knife" in your drawer at home.

Conversely, the "better knife" in the hands of an untrained person will not make up the difference that training will.

If the question is in regards to what is the best SD knife in the hands of an untrained person...I would guess the Civillian...but even then, you need to have some training.

[The Deacon]

some will say the Gunting & P'kal (if you are trained to use it)....I would agree

But wouldn't you say that carrying any knife for SD without training with it makes about as much sense as doing the same with a handgun?

[chuck_roxas45]

But wouldn't you say that carrying any knife for SD without training with it makes about as much sense as doing the same with a handgun?

I totally agree that training is the keystone of self defense. However a few thoughts. That "give your nephew a marker and tell him to mark you as much as he can" demo. And a homeboy armed with a gun or a knife. Why are these homies so dangerous when they have no training? Why do most people get marked a lot by the "nephew with a marker"?

[Joe Talmadge]

But wouldn't you say that carrying any knife for SD without training with it makes about as much sense as doing the same with a handgun?

Agree with chuck's reply, though I'd make the response stronger: I believe we overthink things when we say training is required for effectiveness with edged weapons. I think their use is quite instinctive and primal, and people with no training have been effectively using knives, to the detriment of their fellow man, for hundreds of thousands of years. Take that same nephew, give him an open endura, and let him wave it around near you -- I think instinctively you'll understand how formidable he's become.

Training is a great thing, of course, not trying to argue that. But I wouldn't necessarily tell the good guy not to carry a knife just because he's untrained (obviously, I prefer the bad guys not to carry them :) )

[Jordan]

I gotta disagree here. The reason criminals with no "training" are dangerous with knives is because they use them... in the street... against other human beings... on a fairly regular basis. The training that most of us do is a poor proxy for what they do. During the period of time in which it was considered normal for people to carry knives for the purpose of slicing up other people... the people who lived through attack after attack got really good at not dieing when attacked with a knife :-P. The people who were less good at "knife fighting" either learned some conflict resolution techniques, got wealthy enough to employ people to fight for them, or died.

Your nephew marks you up so much because a) you are afraid to hurt him, b) there is probably a substantial difference in stature and reflex speed, and c) because he is using a marker. Unless you are carrying a lightsaber... it takes a bit more doing to cut someone open than it does to mark someone with ink. If your nephew was trying to KILL you with a knife, odds are you would take advantage of your superior strength and experience to subdue him quite quickly. (Disclaimer: I am assuming that your nephew isn't frequently sent home from school for knife fighting :-P).

In conclusion, I think that people are less overthinking the importance of training than you folks are being too limited in your definition of training. Fighting is the BEST training for a fighter. Anything else is just simulation. Drilling, sparring, cutting on dummies, stabbing steak filled denim, etc. etc... all of that is great. If you do those things every day, all day, and then throw down with someone who gets into two good street fights every weekend... well, odds are he is going to beat the snot outta ya, take your knife, and then stab you in the throat for inconveniencing him. Now, most of us can't or won't go around challenging people to duels or attacking thugs in the street for experiences sake. So, we do what we can. We drill, we spar, we slice dummies and denim sleeves to shreds... all in the hope that we might increase our chances of surviving a violent encounter when need be. The alternative is to... er... not train, and just hope that our body "instinctively" knows how to handle an opponent. IMHO, that is not a wise mindset.

Anyhow, just my two cents.

[unit]

Agree with chuck's reply, though I'd make the response stronger: I believe we overthink things when we say training is required for effectiveness with edged weapons. I think their use is quite instinctive and primal, and people with no training have been effectively using knives, to the detriment of their fellow man, for hundreds of thousands of years. Take that same nephew, give him an open endura, and let him wave it around near you -- I think instinctively you'll understand how formidable he's become.

Training is a great thing, of course, not trying to argue that. But I wouldn't necessarily tell the good guy not to carry a knife just because he's untrained (obviously, I prefer the bad guys not to carry them :) )

I would. If you carry anything ONLY for SD and you are untrained to use it effectively, there is a greater chance that:
1. It will not work effectively to subdue the threat.
2. It will be used on you.

Regardless if it is a gun, a knife or pepper spray...if you do not know what you are doing, you will likely be best served by running away if you can. Primal instinct is fight or flight...use which ever option is BEST.

[SQSAR]

Training is a good thing, but not the only thing. IMHO, the chief benefit of training is the engendered confidence that comes with it. The outcome of a fight in Hollywood is based off of choreography, , , in the real world it's based on either blatant luck, or a totality of circumstances that lead to victory (or maybe both). One of those things that you can factor into that ever precarious equation of winning vs. losing a confrontation where a knife is involved is self awareness and self efficacy. I don't mean a hubris and unwarranted cockiness, but rather, a knowledge that in life threatening situations where a knife might be involved (and lets face it, how often does this really happen) that at least in your mind you have been there before. You have rehearsed this, or very similar situations, well in advance and have not just survived, but prevailed. Will that be the deciding factor? Maybe, maybe not, but I would not presume to bet my life on it, and not train, both mentally and physically.

Case in point: As a LE firearms instructor, there are things we do, such as drawing our weapon where over the years they have been refined and honed such that every move in the process offers some benefit for breaking leather and getting on target quicker and with as much situation/target awareness as possible. Might the way we respond with our non-gun hand have a huge affect in the overall process, , ,arguably not, , , but it might just be that one thing that gets us up on target a mere fraction of a second quicker, and helps us prevail. The same thing, at least in my mind, rings true for self efficacy (Note the difference between self confidence and self efficacy) in edge weapon confrontations. Hardly anyone can train to the level of Doc or Michael Janich, but even a little training, if properly oriented in the person's psyche can lend itself to benefiting the person in time of need.

You can choose to train, or you can choose not train, but one thing that can NEVER be ignored is the fact that the bad guys, who may or may not be receiving formalized training, are training all the time. A social predator lives in a world that most of us don't. A social predator watches movies, may even read books, and engages in conversations with their peers in a different light than we do. They, despite their lack of conventional morals and respect for their fellow man, are not necessarily stupid people, and watch these movies and hold these conversations in efforts to best hone their craft. The craft of preying on the innocent. You may have watched that last action flick and not noticed how the bad guy hit his opponent, but our social predator did. You may be channel surfing and have seen an MMA fight and thought 'man that looks brutal,' but our ever malevolent social predator is watching and taking mental notes about how he might apply this on the street. So choose not to train, and hope your luck holds out. For me, the best tactical knife is two fold: it's the knife I have in my pocket when I need it, and it's the degree to which I keep my mind honed for just such an event. IMHO

[The Deacon]

For one thing, an attacker almost always has the element of surprise. Coming up behind someone and stabbing them does not require a lot of skill. Or you have the multiple attacker scenario, where two more muggers attack a single victim who is generally unarmed and drunk and cut them as an afterthought.

With guns, it's because shooting an unsuspecting person at point-blank range, or spraying a crowd with a hail of bullets, is easier than drawing and firing on a target that's closing with you. Don't know how it is anywhere else, but around here those are the two most common scenarios and there are probably ten or more reports of "shots fired" for every case where anyone is hit, and ten or more shootings for every fatal one.

[Rapidray]

Police Stainless- you already have it as a weapon without even getting the blade out. You have two good thumb size pieces of metal sticking out of your hand. You can push or strike. Temple is a good spot. If it comes to cutting the police can do it. Always my first choose.

[SQSAR]

Two very good points, and very well said Deacon.

[demtek9]

I'll quote Mr. Janich when I took his classes many years ago. The best knife for SD is the one you have in your pocket.

[Jordan]

Police Stainless- you already have it as a weapon without even getting the blade out. You have two good thumb size pieces of metal sticking out of your hand. You can push or strike. Temple is a good spot. If it comes to cutting the police can do it. Always my first choose.

I like your style Ray, I carry a SS Police PE everyday, all day. It does, however, have one critical downside as a SD implement... steel is slippery when covered with blood, sweat, water, and grease. The outstanding ergos do a lot to mitigate this on the Police, but I think that it puts the Police one notch (one small notch, mind you) below the Police3 in the ranks of "tactical" knives. On the other hand, as a tool for a policeman who might have to break a car window, and then transition straight into slicing off a seatbelt, removing clothing to administer first aid, and in a rare (hopefully avoided) situation use a knife to defend himself... the SS Police wins hands down IMHO.

[Joe Talmadge]

Before I address the details, a question: are you guys saying that if you give an average but untrained male a knife and the mindset to do you great harm, you would prevail against him most of the time, because he's untrained? If the "you" is too personal, or you have special skills, assume two anonymous males instead. I'd say answering "yes" brings us to where we disagree -- the idea that a knife is NOT an incredible equalizer even in untrained hands is unrealistic at best, IMO, and a notion you'd soon be disabused of if you ever had to face even a completely untrained person with one. Not a magic talisman that makes one indestructable, mind you, but a formidable equalizer.

I gotta disagree here. The reason criminals with no "training" are dangerous with knives is because they use them... in the street... against other human beings... on a fairly regular basis.

Agree that a habitual criminal with real experience but no school-learning is skilled, and arguably trained through experience. I was talking about people who are untrained -- there are many stories of "regular people" who use knives effectively, they are in the paper constantly (much more constantly than stories of knife disarmings, which come up rarely or never; we'd see many more of them if the theory held any water at all); moreover, not all low-level punks (in fact most of them) are not using their knife "fairly regularly". Agree that someone who has used a knife live is not what we're talking about.

there is a greater chance that:
1. It will not work effectively to subdue the threat.
2. It will be used on you.

While it would be hard to argue with the "greater chance" part of that, if the greater chance is going from 1% to 1.5% chance, it's not significant. What I note is that I've seen loads of stories in the paper, and heard loads of stories from a friend in the police force, and only a very tiny percentage result in the knife wielder being disarmed, even if it's a disgruntled wife defending herself against her abusive husband, or a drunken belligerent bar patron using it when he's on the wrong end of a beating. In short, while I don't know if there's any formal research, at least public sources paint a very consistent picture: the person with the knife, trained or not, usually prevails or at least escapes with their life, unless there's other factors at play.

[Jordan]

Before I address the details, a question: are you guys saying that if you give an average but untrained male a knife and the mindset to do you great harm, you would prevail against him most of the time, because he's untrained? If the "you" is too personal, or you have special skills, assume two anonymous males instead. I'd say answering "yes" brings us to where we disagree -- the idea that a knife is NOT an incredible equalizer even in untrained hands is unrealistic at best, IMO, and a notion you'd soon be disabused of if you ever had to face even a completely untrained person with one. Not a magic talisman that makes one indestructable, mind you, but a formidable equalizer.

Fair points all. A knife being present in a physical confrontation ups the ante for both combatants, and can certainly be a great equalizer. However, I would argue that in a street fight (which I will define for all intents and purposes as a confrontation between two individuals that both with to cause grievous harm or death to their opponent), during the course of which a knife or knives are obtained by one or both parties, the individual who has dedicated time and effort to becoming physically fit and mentally prepared for violence with a knife will inevitable prevail over the individual who has rarely if ever considered or prepared for the ramifications of such violence. When I train with soldiers in my unit that have had little or no experience with edged weapons in the past... I've noted that they attempt 3 different attack maneuvers. For the purposes of this discussion... I'll come up with humorous nicknames for them :-P. The first, and most popular, I'll call the "Babe Ruth". They swing for the fences, with the knife as their bat. Then, they follow that with the inverse of the same maneuver. Then, more swinging. The second I'll call... "the lobotomizer". Basically, they go all icepick in the direction of your forehead. The third, and I suspect the most effective in the real world, I'll call "the shanking". They charge you for a clench and then plunge the rubber training knife into your belly as many times as they can until they get tired or you tell them to stop it. I would posit that these maneuvers are also the ones you would find most often used by "untrained" individuals on the street. The first two will get you killed if you go up against a "trained" individual. #1 takes a long time to perform, and is unlikely to kill or incapacitate very quickly even if it does strike home. #2 leaves your midsection (where, I'm told, all the really gooey parts are kept) woefully exposed. #3... well... that would be bad, but, that's why I train, so that if someone tries to do that to me I'll be able to identify the threat and hopefully avoid it. I know that that is anecdotal evidence... but it's the best I've got. :)

Agree that a habitual criminal with real experience but no school-learning is skilled, and arguably trained through experience. I was talking about people who are untrained -- there are many stories of "regular people" who use knives effectively, they are in the paper constantly (much more constantly than stories of knife disarmings, which come up rarely or never; we'd see many more of them if the theory held any water at all); moreover, not all low-level punks (in fact most of them) are not using their knife "fairly regularly". Agree that someone who has used a knife live is not what we're talking about.

Agreed. I would like to correct my verbiage from the quotation however. When I said fairly regularly, I should have said relatively regularly. Meaning they use a knife to attack someone or defend themselves often relative to me... which means more than never :-P.

]While it would be hard to argue with the "greater chance" part of that, if the greater chance is going from 1% to 1.5% chance, it's not significant. What I note is that I've seen loads of stories in the paper, and heard loads of stories from a friend in the police force, and only a very tiny percentage result in the knife wielder being disarmed, even if it's a disgruntled wife defending herself against her abusive husband, or a drunken belligerent bar patron using it when he's on the wrong end of a beating. In short, while I don't know if there's any formal research, at least public sources paint a very consistent picture: the person with the knife, trained or not, usually prevails or at least escapes with their life, unless there's other factors at play.

The only statistic from my home town that I could find was the number of times knives were used in the course of sexual assaults (4% of the 8% that used a weapon at all... so very few, surprisingly, guns only made up 2% of the 8% though). I would imagine that that is a hard statistic to track, however. If anyone has any hard numbers on stabbings that relates to this I would actually be pretty interested to hear them. You are probably right in saying that a knife wielding attacker is rarely disarmed, and I am 100% certain that you are right in saying that a person with a knife in an attack stands a much better chance than a person without one. Which I guess is what this is all about anyway. :)