Best tactical knife?

[The Deacon]

Can only speak for myself, but I'm saying an untrained attacker has a much better chance of doing you harm than you, as an untrained defender, would have of being less seriously injured than your attacker, assuming they were armed.

But yes, an attacker, trained or untrained, gets to choose the time, place, angle of attack, and victim. If your significant other decides to stab you, chances are they will do it either while you are asleep or while you still have one hand on a doorknob. If a classmate decides to slash you, they'd generally do it from behind while you're both waiting for the bus. If three people decide to mug you while you're staggering home from the bar at 2am, they have a decided advantage. And all the knife training in the world won't enable one to successfully defend against a drive-by shooting.

[Jordan]

Heh, sad but true Deacon. I think that this fact is analogous to the military training against IEDs. There is no 100% defense against improvised explosives and booby traps. We stress situational awareness, we use all sorts of interesting gizmos to stop people from triggering explosives with wireless signals, and we use saturation patrols to deprive the enemy of the opportunity to set them... but they can always disguise the bombs better, trigger them by directly wiring the trigger device to the explosive or configuring them to be victim operated (i.e. crush wire or pressure triggers), and take advantage of the time alloted them between patrols or the cover of darkness to set their devices. I guess what I'm saying is... you do what you can, prepare as you are able, and hope for the best. :)

[stonyman]

Hey Joe, I think you have something there. I just worked a court case where a woman stabbed and cut......killed her friend with a knife. She had the intent and did just that. No formal training just took the knife and went for it!

Now back on topic about best tactical knife. Of course sharp steel will get it done. I really work on pushing the point(pun intended , but the Yo has to be one of the most horrendously efficient cutting tools formally made. I say this from a totally unbiased opinion. I try to find reasons to not like it, but the more that I work with one, thanks to Doc the more I just shake my head! :confused:

The thing stabs right into a cut......cuts into a stab effortlessly! I do not discriminate in training. I digest cutting and stabbing methodology! Why wouldn't you? :mad: I believe in sinking the point, but the yo does both.

This blade is less than 3inches! I would love to see what a 3.5 inch spyderco fixed blade wharncliffe would do! Folks this is all Doc Snubnoses fault! Even though I do not subscribe totally to MJ's effective form of MBC. I will say kudos to a wonderful edc tool! Of course Spyderco makes a bunch of knives to get the job done! Take care and God Bless!

[Blerv]

I would rather carry something that performs well and doesn't look like a knife solely designed for defense purposes.

My legal background is nil but in theory being on the stand with something like a Yojimbo in a bag vs a Civilian I can tell you whose shoes I would rather be in. You can also argue that a Yojimbo wasn't intended as a "carry weapon"; as we know intent is half the battle. For some reason I don't think legally carrying a gun faces the same scrutiny...eg: I would rather carry a gun with a Concealed Carry permit than a Civilian even if legal.

The Civilian was never designed as a "tactical knife" but rather as as a defense tool for a "last ditch" scenario. Whatever it touches it cuts, it's freaky as ****, it's LONG. The fact that it can't really stab takes some of that "tactical" role out of it.

As an untrained, I would feel comfortable with any Spyderco offering a large thumb hole, sharp blade, secure lock, and ergonomic handle. From a Stretch or Adventura to a Yojimbo/Civi. Well, as "comfortable" as anyone would be flailing for his life with a knife in hand. :o

The Gunting/P'Kal as mentioned is a specific methodology. They don't cater as well to a "natural" or untrained survival tenancy. I can't get into the P'kal mindset nor want to pay $200 for a knife with a strange hump and short blade.

[Jordan]

My legal background is nil but in theory being on the stand with something like a Yojimbo in a bag vs a Civilian I can tell you whose shoes I would rather be in. You can also argue that a Yojimbo wasn't intended as a "carry weapon"; as we know intent is half the battle. For some reason I don't think legally carrying a gun faces the same scrutiny...eg: I would rather carry a gun with a Concealed Carry permit than a Civilian even if legal.

I understand this viewpoint... but I don't much like it. I'd rather be on the stand than in the ground. I am confident that I wouldn't defend myself physically unless I could defend myself legally for doing so, regardless of the implement I used. I make it a point not to include this line of reasoning when I consider my carry options. I think that it inexorably leads to people carrying sub standard tools with SD in mind. I am trying very hard not to say that I'd rather by tried by 6 than carried by 4... but I kinda would, know what I mean? As usual, I mean no offense, just my humble opinion.

[Joe Talmadge]

You are probably right in saying that a knife wielding attacker is rarely disarmed, and I am 100% certain that you are right in saying that a person with a knife in an attack stands a much better chance than a person without one. Which I guess is what this is all about anyway. :)

Yes, that's what I was arguing -- untrained or not, the person with the knife almost always prevails (or survives, or escapes, or whatever the goal is). Or at least, that's what the preponderance of the anecdotal evidence leads me to believe.

That does bring up another very important point you made, about mindset. I believe that in most cases, mindset is a more important determining factor than training, when it comes to using a knife. If an untrained person was thinking of carrying a knife for self defense, about the only time I'd discourage it is if I felt mind-set wise, they really weren't prepared to use it.

And, no argument that training is good -- nothing I wrote should be interpreted as me saying that training isn't a good thing that can swing the odds more in your favor.

---
Going back to the original question, if you had training, you'd know which knife fit your style best. Without training, I'd say you want the biggest knife that you'll actually carry, that has an opening mechanism that works for you reliably, and preferably a heavy duty lock or better.

[dj moonbat]

"Knife fights" per se are not really the threat that one is seeking to address by carrying a self-defense knife. Muggings are. If a mugger approaches, and the muggee has a big knife, the mugger will go find somebody else, unless he knows that -- besides the knife -- his target has something he really, really wants.

One doesn't need to be highly trained for one's knife to be effective in that use case, and I think it's the use case that figures most prominently in the desire for a self-defense knife. You'll have to be highly trained if you actually do find yourself in the "knife fight" scenario, and still could end up getting slaughtered; and, if you find yourself in the "brought a knife to a gun fight" scenario, no amount of training is likely to help you.

[Blerv]

I understand this viewpoint... but I don't much like it. I'd rather be on the stand than in the ground. I am confident that I wouldn't defend myself physically unless I could defend myself legally for doing so, regardless of the implement I used. I make it a point not to include this line of reasoning when I consider my carry options. I think that it inexorably leads to people carrying sub standard tools with SD in mind. I am trying very hard not to say that I'd rather by tried by 6 than carried by 4... but I kinda would, know what I mean? As usual, I mean no offense, just my humble opinion.

I completely agree. Survival is FAR more important than legal problems that can be paid-to-fix.

That said, here is some food for thought in this specific comparison (Yojimbo vs Civilian):

* Lock: Winner = Yojimbo
* Slashing: Winner = Yojimbo
* Reach: Winner = Civi
* Intimidation: Winner = Civi
* Court Appearance (speculation): Winner = Yojimbo
* Local Laws: Winner = Yojimbo (due to fewer states allowing blade-length of over 4")
* Penetration: Winner = Yojimbo (by a MILE)

The modified wharncliffe penetrates like a hyperdermic needle and slashes like a circular saw. Unless your fighting robots wearing stab-plates it's still a great pick.

Personally I would rather have a knife I'm comfortable with over a tactical knife that beats it in a point system. I carry a small EDC (ladybug) so the large one is always sharp. A Stretch or Delica is far from "sub-par" and will still cut over 2" of meat and tendons...not exactly Gramps Case knife. :p

[Jordan]

Agreed on every point Blerv, well said.

[redhawk44357]

I think the OP is asking about a folding knife.

oops..... you right.....(getting glasses checked again )

[Dr. Snubnose]

I agree with everyone...Doc :D

[unit]

Before I address the details, a question: are you guys saying that if you give an average but untrained male a knife and the mindset to do you great harm, you would prevail against him most of the time, because he's untrained?

It depends on if the untrained male with a knife is able to produce the knife under stress. Regardless, this is not about me fighting anyone with equal/no training, this is about defense...presumably from an attacker that is already a few steps ahead of you.

A false sense of security is a dangerous thing to arm someone with...thus I would advise flight if you are untrained to fight.

While it would be hard to argue with the "greater chance" part of that, if the greater chance is going from 1% to 1.5% chance, it's not significant. What I note is that I've seen loads of stories in the paper, and heard loads of stories from a friend in the police force, and only a very tiny percentage result in the knife wielder being disarmed, even if it's a disgruntled wife defending herself against her abusive husband, or a drunken belligerent bar patron using it when he's on the wrong end of a beating. In short, while I don't know if there's any formal research, at least public sources paint a very consistent picture: the person with the knife, trained or not, usually prevails or at least escapes with their life, unless there's other factors at play.

What your research may be failing to show you is how many people carried a SD item (be it knife, pepper spray, gun, whatever), and were assaulted and were unable to employ use of the item effectively (i.e. it was left in the glove box, in the bottom of the purse, or some other location...possibly on the person, but not used effectively). These would all qualify as examples of #1.

Sure, if the person has the knife drawn and is ready for action, their odds may go way up...OTOH
Remember a knife that is dropped, fumbled, left in the car/pocket/bag all serve as examples of "It will not work effectively to subdue the threat."

[vega77]

spyderco military + training

[MtnMan]

spyderco military + training

Good combo.
+1

[Blerv]

I agree with everyone...Doc :D

I agree with Doc because he carries more knives than a sushi chef. :p

[Joe Talmadge]

It depends on if the untrained male with a knife is able to produce the knife under stress.

Spot on about the difficulty of producing the knife. But then we go down a different path -- in my experience, the vast majority of schools don't spend much time teaching stress-tested draws either. So trained or untrained -- very formidable if the knife is out, but drawing under stress itself is a problem to be solved. In any case, sometimes untrained people manage to produce a knife, and from what I can tell they don't often get hurt because of it.

Regardless, this is not about me fighting anyone with equal/no training, this is about defense...

True -- obviously, that was just a little thought experiment, which normally snaps people out of the notion that someone untrained who has a knife in their hand isn't incredibly formidable. The point about how it gets there, I agree with.

A false sense of security is a dangerous thing to arm someone with...thus I would advise flight if you are untrained to fight.

True, flight, like talking your way out of it, is a path that's highly preferred. Again, trained or untrained, if it's available, it's a good way to go. But it's not realistic in too many situations -- you're with your girlfriend, your with your kids, your attackers are younger and faster -- that at best, it's a good solution for a narrow selection of problems, and not at all an answer for many (most) others.

Moreover, just as with concealed firearms, my experience is that (at least with good guys) carrying does not give a false sense of security that leads to conflict, but if anything gives the carrier a reason to avoid conflict. Again, there's nothing scientific here, but real-life wise, with good guys and not bad guys, it's never lead to cockiness or more conflict. Like the idea that untrained people with a knife are not very formidable, the idea that they might seek out conflict due to overconfidence is another of those things that experience doesn't bear out.

What your research may be failing to show you is how many people carried a SD item (be it knife, pepper spray, gun, whatever), and were assaulted and were unable to employ use of the item effectively (i.e. it was left in the glove box, in the bottom of the purse, or some other location...possibly on the person, but not used effectively). These would all qualify as examples of #1.

Agreed, drawing is hard, and you're right, that qualifies as example #1... no way to research that at all, even anecdotally, but I believe it's significant. That said, again, given how I see most edged weapons school work, I'm not sure most training addresses that either. One of the things I've admired about Mercop is how he's latched onto this problem and won't let it go.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Hey Joe, I think you have something there. I just worked a court case where a woman stabbed and cut......killed her friend with a knife. She had the intent and did just that. No formal training just took the knife and went for it!

Now back on topic about best tactical knife. Of course sharp steel will get it done. I really work on pushing the point(pun intended , but the Yo has to be one of the most horrendously efficient cutting tools formally made. I say this from a totally unbiased opinion. I try to find reasons to not like it, but the more that I work with one, thanks to Doc the more I just shake my head! :confused:

The thing stabs right into a cut......cuts into a stab effortlessly! I do not discriminate in training. I digest cutting and stabbing methodology! Why wouldn't you? :mad: I believe in sinking the point, but the yo does both.

This blade is less than 3inches! I would love to see what a 3.5 inch spyderco fixed blade wharncliffe would do! Folks this is all Doc Snubnoses fault! Even though I do not subscribe totally to MJ's effective form of MBC. I will say kudos to a wonderful edc tool! Of course Spyderco makes a bunch of knives to get the job done! Take care and God Bless!

Hey...What do you mean it's my fault...LOL,,,,I'll second the idea behind a bigger Yo....4" or better would be awesome...
About two years ago I designed a Wharnie SD knife with a 4" blade (not a folder)...it was going to be a collab with a custom knife maker but we didn't see eye to eye on a few issues and the project went down the tubes real fast...but here is a pic anyway.....Doc :)
[img]<a%20href="http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af33 ... ucket"></a>[/img]

[Antonio_Luiz]

The most used knife in assaults is whatever was handy in the kitchen drawer - or in this case.........
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 101598.htm

As has been stated by others, most assaults are cowardly sneak attacks from behind with little or no warning. Even if you have a knife on you, you may not have an opportunity to use it

It's all very well to talk about knives and training - but every situation is different. Try keeping your balance whilst fighting in the restricted confines of a "rocking/bouncing" subway train - I don't know of any martial arts training that prepares you for that situation. Only advantage is that your assailant is getting tossed around just as badly. Yeah - been there, done that too.

[Dr. Snubnose]

The most used knife in assaults is whatever was handy in the kitchen drawer - or in this case.........
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... 101598.htm

As has been stated by others, most assaults are cowardly sneak attacks from behind with little or no warning. Even if you have a knife on you, you may not have an opportunity to use it

It's all very well to talk about knives and training - but every situation is different. Try keeping your balance whilst fighting in the restricted confines of a "rocking/bouncing" subway train - I don't know of any martial arts training that prepares you for that situation. Only advantage is that your assailant is getting tossed around just as badly. Yeah - been there, done that too.

I do....Yeah been there done that...Yes even if you have a knife on you, you may not have an opportunity to use it...or you may choose not to use it.....and every situation is different.....but knives can help and so can training and just because statistics or news reports don't prove that, doesn't mean they are not a good idea....Anything can be used as a weapon if the mindset and intent is there....My students joke and say I can do them great harm with a bendy straw, we all laugh...but they know it's true.... Oh...and remind me to stay out of your kitchen :p Doc :D

[syphen]

No one mentioned that you can find Matriarchs in both PE and SE kicking around the secondary market for a good price still..