Kinetic opening of the Gunting

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liko
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Kinetic opening of the Gunting

#1

Post by liko »

I've been thinking about the ability of the gunting to kinetically open on an opponent or object. Specifically, I was thinking of SPYDERHOLIC II's and Bram's warnings never to open it on a living thing unless you want trouble.



I've never seen it in action, but thinking of how it must work, I'm thinking that the two easiest ways would be to reach behind your opponent to one side and pull the knife toward you as you allow the cusp to catch on his side, or to swipe it across his front with the cusp facing him, again letting it catch on his side or clothing.



Now, when this happens, the blade will come out and immediately start trying to dig into whatever you're opening it on. I was thinking if it could be done with a quick motion, it could be pulled away once the detent is disengaged and allowed to lock by momentum. With practice, this would allow you to open the knife and end up with the point pricking your opponent, but with no serious injuries. One more control option. Done incorrectly, the knife would open into your opponent, inflicting quite a nasty wound.



Just broadcasting my thoughts. Is this indeed what would happen if I kinetically opened the knife carelessly?



Wise man say, forgiveness is divine. Remember that when your <img src="http://www.spyderco.com/forum/spyder.gif" border=0> bites you!
Sirius
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#2

Post by Sirius »

liko,
I HAVE seen the Gunting in action - on my midsection... I was showing a co-worker what the Gunting is about and made the mistake of showing him with the Drone. So he picked up the actual Gunting and said the dreaded words "like this?", slid it VERY lightly acros my stomach and promptly sliced open my heavy shirt and about a quarter inch into the flesh. It was about an inch long. A few butterfly strips and a scotch or two later I was fine, but it was incredible how well it worked...

So, liko, you are on the money about how you might do it...but I am not sure how easy it would be to "just prick" someone. It would be VERY easy however, to really injure someone this way. I would stick to control with a closed Gunting and use the opening only when you felt you had to escalate to serious cutting whether bio-mechanical as Bram teaches, or lethal.

In my job I actually prefer to carry the Drone and use it for control. I can't wait for the CRMIPT - my ideal control tool! (and no chance of an errant co-worker slicing me open...)

Sirius
Michael Janich
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#3

Post by Michael Janich »

Dear Liko:

The kinetic opening of the Gunting was specifically designed to work on an opponent's arm. The girth of an average forearm/wrist will allow the blade to open while the point clears the flesh and passes safely around the arm.

If you try this on anything larger (including legs), the point will not clear and will dig in and cut very aggressively. This has happened to several novice users at shows and is a major reason that you should play with a trainer before you attempt to work with a live blade.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

mike j
judge
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#4

Post by judge »

One tiny addition Sirius:
Biomech and lethal don´t exclude each other, they mix. The deciding factor probably being time and an (easy to accomplish) thorough cut.
BRAM
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#5

Post by BRAM »

Liko is absolutely correct..opening it off of the other guy is the safest..to prevent accidental cuts, maiming etc I tell all of you to not do it and be smart and practice with a DRONE....
Look I'll violate my normal rants.. I can and do and have in the past opened the live blade on ever part of an opponent's body... and my training partners... done it alot..done it off many of my own parts..
its designed to do it...
Since I have proved it can be done NONE of you need to do it or experiment to see if I'm correct..OK???GOOD!
BY the way we did not have DRONES when we played with live blades..thats why I designed functional Drones.....
be it Delicas drone, Enduras drone... my previous unmentionable knife or the Gunting..
Do not Kin-Op ( Kinetically Open) the Gunting off of your own leg...
ONE CANNOT DO IT OFF OF ONE'S OWN LEG..as Mike said you biomechanically run out of room and the arc of the opening ..it bounces open, tip rip and then resets the blade edge into your leg..BAM you're cut..( minor point..you have succeded in one thing, the knife IS open at that point)
WARNING: DO NOT DO THIS..In reverse grip pulling away from own leg one could do it..
DO NOT try this..WHY? Cause if I say its possible you guys will try it and someone will get cut..so don't do it...
Your stomach? again you're trying to do the same impossible bio mechanical action over a bigger area..

I warn you not to Kin-Op on your own body for if you do and you screw it up maiming or hurting an innocent person or yourself I don't want you coming to me to say I told you to do this or I said its OK..
I'm telling you outright to not do it..
its not OK...
EXCEPTION: you are in extreme danger and you need to open it off of your attacker..well go for it..if it opens perfectly without cutting him or her ..great..If it cuts them upon opening..WHO cares??..you're in extreme danger...OK????

Use a DRONE to play with and see whats possible..if the blade runs on you it ain't possible..
train safely

Bram




Edited by - BRAM on 5/3/2002 10:52:20 PM
liko
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#6

Post by liko »

OK, Bram, I'll get the trainer already!

The live knife is definitely too dangerous to use to practice something as inherently dangerous as fighting. I was having trouble justifying the drone's cost (same as the live knife for a tool that has only nonlethal and training value), but I seem to be getting very interested in learning how to use it, so the trainer may not be a bad idea. One suggestion: the trainer's scales could be made of FRN with the same texture as the G-10. Not a large difference in weight (I think), and it would make the trainer much less expensive.

One last question: Since there are no MBC training courses that I know of in Austin or Lubbock, what would be a good martial art to know that incorporates close-in weapons like knives or would allow the incorporation of a knife in the moves? I was thinking Krav Maga, since classes are available in both cities and the style incorporates close-in weapons of many types, but if you know of anything better, especially any art where a Gunting in particular could be easily incorporated, I'd appreciate it.

Wise man say, forgiveness is divine. Remember that when your <img src="http://www.spyderco.com/forum/spyder.gif" border=0> bites you!
judge
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#7

Post by judge »

liko,
I would respectfully direct you towards looking for a Filipino fighting style. "Gunting" itself is a Tagalog (Filipino) word for "scissors", it is a specialized move.
Michael Janich´s MBC curriculum and teachings are rooted in Filipino knifework, as far as I can tell from his book.
There´s lots of different Filipino styles, the best known are Modern Arnis, Pekiti Tirsia, Serrada (Cabales Serrada and others).
Go looking for anything with "Arnis", "Eskrima", "Kali" in the name. Check the dojo out, talk with the teacher(s), watch and talk with the students. Specifically ask for knifework (most styles start with sticks, introducing the knives later in the curriculum). If you don´t feel comfortable, go looking somewhere else.
Hope you find something you like and consider useful!
BRAM
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#8

Post by BRAM »

You can study Filipino Arts..any of them..there's lots of Modern Arnis in Texas..
I'm trying to set up a Gunting -MBC seminar
.. in Texas soon..probably in the Houston area..
A regular MBC seminar would be great for you..the knife counter knife is the same no matter what tool is in your hands,,Mike is based alot on Filipino concepts..
The GUNTING specific part is where the Guntying-MBC seminars differ from the regular MBC--of course thats obvious!
The GUNTING was designed to do Filipino work and I designed it in honor of Professor Remy Presas..the founder of Modern Arnis..
The Gunting System is based on what Professor called his Sinawali Applications & Tapi- Tapi Drills...
So if you could learn any Filpino martial art and back it up with Gunting specific video tapes..and then you'd understand the gunting system basically.. Tapes are available from Video Quest 1-800-340-9664 or SpydercoFactory Outlet..

train safely..

Bram



Edited by - BRAM on 5/4/2002 11:22:38 PM
Pachucko
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#9

Post by Pachucko »

Bram, I know you get these questions alot, but how soon is soon? More or less?

Pachucks
gordyt
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#10

Post by gordyt »

Hey Bram,

About this...

<<
I'm trying to set up a Gunting -MBC seminar
.. in Texas soon..probably in the Houston area..>>

If you can set that up you can definitely count me in! Hurry on down to TX!!


--gordon
BRAM
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#11

Post by BRAM »

I'm on my way to Israel soon..I'll be there June 1-June 14th..then I'll be back..
Then I'll work on going to StLouis and then Texas..maybe a couple of places in Texas...
I'll let you all know..

bram
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