H-1 Military ?

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H-1 Military ?

Postby florijn » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:54 am

Sal, Any chance we could get a Millie with H-1 plain blade and yellow G-10 handle?
Any other interseted millie fans?
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Postby Chris_H » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:19 am

A couple of obstacles right off already exist going against a Military in H-1.
  1. H-1 blades are hollow ground because of production limitations (i.e., cost prohibitive), so a H-1 Millitary wouldn't have the typical (and highly coveted for some) FFG. Could also potentially affect the ability to do the double distal taper feature.
  2. The Rock Salt was discontinued because of difficulties with obtaining 4mm thick sheets of the steel for use. That would mean the same thing for the Military which shares that thickness
Another challenge would be "rust proofing" the inlaid liners that now exist on both sides of the Military model.

No doubt this is a case of, "If :spyder: makes it, 'they' will buy it." However, it's the number of "they" that are willing to pay out what this would cost to make it a viable production run; that is what will ultimately leave it on the concept drawing board.
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Postby Jester » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:44 am

I agree that there are several aspects of this that would make for a rather expensive knife. It would however be such an awesome knife that I would somehow come up with the four or five bones to buy it. There should be enough Millie fans plus enough H1 fans to sell out a sprint even if they are $400 apiece (but hopefully not that expensive). This would be the fusion of two Spyderco signatures, Millie and H1.

Unfortunately, from a design aspect, I think the clip may pose the biggest challenge to this coming to be.

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Postby v8r » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:18 am

It would definitely be cool. I would think a military would sell better than a Rocksalt. The Rocksalt probably didnt sell well because it was quite expensive And not to mention quite large.
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Postby Joe Internet » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:11 am

Titanium handles would solve the liner problem.

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Postby Ben_1323 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:55 am

Chris_H wrote:A couple of obstacles right off already exist going against a Military in H-1.
  1. H-1 blades are hollow ground because of production limitations (i.e., cost prohibitive), so a H-1 Millitary wouldn't have the typical (and highly coveted for some) FFG. Could also potentially affect the ability to do the double distal taper feature.
  2. The Rock Salt was discontinued because of difficulties with obtaining 4mm thick sheets of the steel for use. That would mean the same thing for the Military which shares that thickness
Another challenge would be "rust proofing" the inlaid liners that now exist on both sides of the Military model.

No doubt this is a case of, "If :spyder: makes it, 'they' will buy it." However, it's the number of "they" that are willing to pay out what this would cost to make it a viable production run; that is what will ultimately leave it on the concept drawing board.
The Rock Salt was 3mm thick. I think it was discontinued because it was just a lot of steel and the cost was too high to produce it.

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Postby Chris_H » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:28 pm

Ben_1323 wrote:The Rock Salt was 3mm thick. I think it was discontinued because it was just a lot of steel and the cost was too high to produce it.
Thanks, I couldn't remember for sure if the Rock Salt was 3 or 4mm. But, the Military definitely is. That may still pose a problem for getting the H1 in the right thickness from the foundry.

Of course the Warrior is a thick H1 model too. Hmm...
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Postby mechnik » Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:35 pm

Joe Internet wrote:Titanium handles would solve the liner problem.
Amen

How much would it cost to FFGrind the blade ?

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Postby Jester » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:36 am

Could someone explain? I don't know enough to understand why FFG on H1 is more expensive than hollow grind or why it is more of an issue than FFG on other steels.

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Postby HotSoup » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:57 am

It has nothing to do with cost.

the hollow grinding allows for better work hardening.

It appears FFG H-1 didn't meet Spydercos specifications or was just completely unusable.

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Postby florijn » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:33 am

Joe Internet wrote:Titanium handles would solve the liner problem.
Now that is a configuration I would like to see too.

H-1 blade, Ti frame lock with yellow G10.
I think all the issues for not producing can be solved.
It's more a question if Spyderco thinks if this knife needed, if it will work in the field and what price tag it would get to overcome the production issues.

I would buy 3 of them right away :)
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Postby yablanowitz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:52 am

Jester wrote:Could someone explain? I don't know enough to understand why FFG on H1 is more expensive than hollow grind or why it is more of an issue than FFG on other steels.
H-1 work hardens as it is ground. Hollow grinding is done on both sides of the blade at the same time, so the hardening is even. Flat grinding (on a production scale) is done on one side at a time. By the time the first side is ground, the blade has hardened enough to cause problems with grinding the other side. Knifemakers like Tom Krein can flat grind H-1, but they work by hand, alternating sides and cooling between passes. That's fine for custom work, but it would be too expensive for full production. Production lines need to kick out ten or more blades in the time it takes Tom to do one. Adding an extra $30 to the cost of producing each blade would really jack up the retail price.

Have you ever noticed there aren't any liner lock Salts? Have you ever noticed how easily H-1 scratches? Do you suppose there could be some link between those two things?
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Postby Joe Internet » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:54 pm

I don't think that a hollow-ground 3mm blade would be the end of the world on a military. For a sprint run, it's fine. Those that like it buy it, collectors buy it for the uniqueness, and all the haterz just miss out. :)

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Postby StangBang » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:03 pm

You also have to remember the Warrior which is in production right now and uses H-1 steel and it is 4mm thick...

I think a problem with the Rock Salt was the price for some. I absolutely LOVE mine and plan on getting a Warrior. However I use my Rock Salt relentlessly and it performs very very well. If I get the Warrior it will be a collector piece for me because I would rather use my Rock Salt for chores and keep the Warrior pristine. So you might run into that issue with other people choosing to buy the Warrior over the Rock Salt because of the history behind the blade.


Back to the topic, I would love to see an H-1 Military and I would buy one in a heartbeat. Some of the difficulties already discussed are what make me doubt that we will see one :(

Good idea though and if they build it I will buy it :)
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Postby StangBang » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:10 pm

As mentioned above I think something that would be interesting would be if Spyderco did to a two scale design using titanium Ril (very rust resistant if not rust proof) and using the Yellow G10 on the flipside.

For me, I wouldn't mind if the blade wasn't FFG. I think it would be cool to see it in the Hollow ground form. Definitely would be one innovative knive.
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Postby frontline29 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:14 pm

Jester wrote:
Unfortunately, from a design aspect, I think the clip may pose the biggest challenge to this coming to be.
out of all things, why do you think the clip would pose the biggest challenge to over come?
:confused:

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Postby catamount » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:51 am

Another difficulty not mentioned is steel. Since the Milli is made in Golden, they'd have to import the H1. Even if this is possible (The Japanese are not too keen on exporting their better steels in commercial quantities), it would increase costs.
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Jester
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Postby Jester » Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:27 am

frontline29 wrote:out of all things, why do you think the clip would pose the biggest challenge to over come?
:confused:
I need to expand that statement and explain. I think the entire design of the Millie does not lend itself well to the entire H1 concept. In the salt knives, the blade isn't the only thing that needs to be corrosion resistant. There are pins, lockbar, clip, etc. To address this, they use pinned construction and a Ti barrel bolt clip. Now compare that to the screwed construction of the Military. I'm pretty sure there were good reasons to avoid using tiny screws in the construction of the salt and those reasons will mean that an H1 Millie would need a extreme redesign or appropriately corrosion resistant screws would have to be found.

This Fastener Issue may not be as relevant I have made it ou to be. There may be screws out there that have the proper properties that are cost effective. I hope so. The image in my head of yellow G10 with Ti RIL makes me drool.

Also, everything in this post could be completely wrong. It is all just stuff I've figured in my head.
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Joe Internet
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Postby Joe Internet » Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:32 am

&quot wrote:Another difficulty not mentioned is steel. Since the Milli is made in Golden, they'd have to import the H1. Even if this is possible (The Japanese are not too keen on exporting their better steels in commercial quantities), it would increase costs.
They already export H1 in finished knives. There's no reason that the blades couldn't be made in Japan and sent to Colorado for final build.
&quot wrote: I'm pretty sure there were good reasons to avoid using tiny screws in the construction of the salt and those reasons will mean that an H1 Millie would need a extreme redesign or appropriately corrosion resistant screws would have to be found.
The Salt series are already being converted to screw construction as a rolling change.

What else is left? Spacers? Phosphor-bronze bushings? Clip? There's nothing to say that a sprint version has to be 1,000,000% exactly like the standard model.

Honestly, an H1 Military is a pretty good idea, since H1 has good durability, toughness, and easy maintenance (cleaning & easy to sharpen).

What would also be cool would be a Military sized & shaped Salt in FRN with a backlock. Then you could get by with a new FRN mold, make the knife in Japan, re-use the small parts from the current large bladed Salts. Since a new mold would be needed, I would vote for the bi-directional texturing instead of the volcano grip.

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Postby Jester » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:48 pm

I'm glad to have my theory shot down.


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