S30V Vs. ZDP189 (Reformed)

[Rambo241]

Hey everybody, I thought it would be a wise idea to start a new thread and let the other one die... I'm not picking sides, I just want to talk and learn about these two steals.

I don't have much experience with S30V except for the Swick 2, which I am patiently waiting on a sheath from Marion for so I can start using it. :D As for ZDP189 I have had no experience with it yet. :o So I am really no help in this discussion except for starting this thread.

-Blaine

[TBob]

Both are very good, powdered steels. Spyderco has an excellent discussion about particle/powdered steels in their print catalogs. It's worth a read.

S30v was specifically designed by Crucible in the U.S. for knife blades, which makes it a bit unique and an overall excellent performer. It holds a wicked edge and isn't too hard to sharpen, plus has great wear, corrosion, stain resistance. There's an outstanding article on S30v at this link. I'm very fond of S30v and it serves me well on several of my favorite knives.

ZDP-189 is a unique super-steel. It's very hard, yet not particularly brittle due to its high carbon and chromium content. Custom designed by Hitachi to be the toughest cutting tool steel around, it holds a wicked edge for a very long time and it can be sharpened to a very thin edge without chipping. But, the hardness that makes this possible also makes harder to sharpen. If you let it get dull, it's easier to send it back to Spyderco to resharpen. Despite the high chromium content, most find that it is easier to stain than VG-10 or S30v. You can read Hitachi's brochure translated to English at this link. Lastly, ZDP-189 is expensive compared to other steels, but is highly prized in Japan for high-end chef knives. It serves me well on my Stretch CF EDC.

Several have said, and I agree, that the overall design of a knife as it relates to your requirement for it is the most important factor. Blade steel plays into that, but so does the knife's ergonomics, handle material, shape, etc. I personally don't get hung up on the latest fad steel, but evaluate the whole package. What's most important is what serves you well in your typical use pattern.

[The General]

One of the things thats easy to forget is increasing edge retention (for example) in the aspects of wear resistance specifically.

Not toughness or anything more complex, just the ability of an edge at a given angle to resist wear.

You take a steel like 440C, which for many years was 'the' benchmark in knives in the stainless area of knife steels.

Then others came along and you have improvements, perhaps 20% here or 30% there and it was noticeable to experienced knife users. An improvement of less than 10% would be very difficult for the average knife user to notice, even an experienced one. You can notice this in the lab, but in the real world, you do not cut the same things all the time, in the same way, in the same circumstances so you need a fairly big jump in wear resistance to notice an improvement.

So when I compare VG-10 and S30V in edge retention, I really, honestly do not really notice any noticable different in wear resistance. It can go either way depending on the knife or what I am doing and how. I do notice VG10 is slightly easier to sharpen and I think and feel it holds a finer edge and is a more fine grained steel.

I might be wrong of course!

Then you test ZDP-189 and the jump in performance wear resistance wise is astonishing. Its not 30% better, its more like 200%+ improved. You really notice the difference. Its gobsmackingly improved wear resistance wise.

So if I were to summarise, for the casual user, ZDP-189 is worth trying but its a super super steel and it does require a bit more thought and user experience and ability to harness its potential. Thanks to Spyderco, you can try this steel in an AFFORDABLE knife.

S30V is a good all round steel but I think its way over rated. Its difficult to heat treat and when its done right, its very good. However, to me, I believe VG10 is a better all round steel than S30V.

I will state here and now I prefer VG10 over S30V. I have had too many issues with microchipping in production company S30V blades for it to be a co-incidence. None of my custom knives in S30V exhibit any such issues. So it is the steel and its not. If that makes sense. Its a difficult steel to get right and I believe in knives made to a price in a production methodology its not an ideal steel on many levels.

The fact Crucible have brought out CPM S35V and are suggesting it fixes the toughness and microchipping complaints suggest I am not the only one who believes that S30V is a tough steel to get just right.

When S30V is done right, it does not microchip. I have yet to own a production factory knife in S30V that does not microchip at 30 degree's inclusive. And that's just using it to cut regular items, nothing spectacular or abusive.

As a comparison, some suggest ZDP-189 is prone to chipping and microchipping. I carried a Caly in laminated ZDP-189 as a test blade before buying my current Caly knives. I used it for a couple of months and it was insanely sharp out of the box. Certainly no more than 30 degree's inclusive, probably slightly less. It did all the same daily tasks and no microchipping. Not one little problem. My UKPK has an edge that looks like a serrated knife under a fine lupe. My full sized Manix in S30V has barely been used and it also exhibits the same microchipping, as do other S30V knives to a lesser or greater degree. The customs? Not a mark, nothing. Just regular wear that is naturally sharpened as you go.

I first thought it was the lack of a polished edge on my non custom S30V factory blades that was causing this. Then I thought it might be the way the steel is cut, causing temper issues or carbon loss at the edge. I considered many factors. I am finally of the opinion that S30V is just a sod to make.

I have been asked to remove a lot of steel from an edge to bring fresh steel to the fore and see if that cures the issue. It might well do this. I am considering giving my UKPK a total edge re doing. However the knife still cuts and it still works. It just dulls quicker than I would like. I figured I would eventually get to this fresh steel with use, so why wear out a knife quicker than I need to? Which also begs the question, why ought I need to do this?

So S30V, its great when its done well, its at best average when not.

[JNewell]

I had thought the comparison was maybe not the most appropriate. Adjectives and nouns are a little hard to agree on in this area, but I'd distinguish "exotic" steels such as ZDP-189 and S90V from "super" steels such as CMP-154, VG-10, S30V and CTS-XHP (among several others).

But this area has a lot of scope for opinion and misunderstanding, among other things, so I will say that YMMV! :D

[The General]

Oh and just to add, every time I resharpen my UKPK, I of course removed these microchips. Only for them to return with use.

I have now put a secondary bevel on the knife at 40 degree's inclusive and am testing the knife at that edge angle. This was done on the flats of the white stones of the Sharpmaker and then stropped on cardboard with Flitz polish.

I will update when I have more time under my belt at this angle.

Course I really appreciate the fact I am permitted to share my experiences with this steel on this forum and that I have not been asked to remove my criticisms of S30V. Especially when you consider its one of the most used knife steels in the Spyderco range. Appreciate that a great deal.

[Frapiscide]

Sorry to threadjack, but since we're talking about S30V, would it be a wise move to put a mirror polish edge at 30 degrees inclusive?

[dj moonbat]

Sorry to threadjack, but since we're talking about S30V, would it be a wise move to put a mirror polish edge at 30 degrees inclusive?

Yes. Mirror polish edges are never "unwise" except insofar as you think your time could be better spent. Sharp? Good.

[The Mentaculous]

I love both...it's easier to get a super edge on S30v but ZDP will hold it much longer, so it's really up to the user. I'm very happy with my purchases in both steels. Both respond really well to some stropping for a touch-up, although the ZDP often takes about twice as many strokes to achieve the same effect. I'm sure if I got my ZDP caly reprofiled to 20 degrees inclusive or less it would blow s30v away in terms of edge, but at the same angle they have about the same edge fineness in my expirience

[jezabel]

My experiences seem identical to "The General's", I agree with all Wayne's observations concerning S30V.

Jez

[NoFair]

Just whipped out a microscope (biologist as well as knife nerd) and took a look at the edges of my S30V users (beater Military, Sage I and II, and a Para2) and there is no microchipping on mine. Most edges are 25-40 with a polished convex edge. The Para2 came with a great edge so that hasn't been convexed yet though.

And I have seen microchipping before (early days with the above Military and a ZDP CF Stretch). The Stretch also has a polished convex edge now and there is no chipping.

[dj moonbat]

Just whipped out a microscope . . .

See, that's how you show people you're serious about your edges. Just casually "whip out" a microscope, like you do it all the time.

All the rest of you hair whittlers take note: the bar has been raised.

[NoFair]

See, that's how you show people you're serious about your edges. Just casually "whip out" a microscope, like you do it all the time.

All the rest of you hair whittlers take note: the bar has been raised.

I have one at home and several from Zeiss at work :D

[The General]

One other thing that I had not really considered.

All my knives in S30V are from the early days of its introduction.

2005-2006 ish.

I have not bought a knife in S30V recently.

More modern knives in S30V might not have the same issues if my theory is correct that its down to how tricky it is to get right. Things might well have improved.

[TBob]

OK, I don't have a microscope handy, but I do have a magnifying glass. I just finished examining some edges - one ZDP-189, 4 S30v (incl. Bob T. made in Taiwan, other 3 U.S.A., Earth), and 3 VG-10. None of them have any microchips. I finish them all with the Sharpmaker ultra fine sticks and all the edges look great. I acquired the oldest S30v about 2.5 years ago and the newest just a couple of months ago. I don't see any difference across the limited sample.

[SaturnNyne]

One other thing that I had not really considered.

All my knives in S30V are from the early days of its introduction.

2005-2006 ish.

I have not bought a knife in S30V recently.

I was actually wondering about this, since your descriptions seem very similar to the reports of problems with the early batches of S30V. Is the UKPK really old enough to be from the early days of S30 though? I thought the steel predated that model by some years. If you ever get a new sample of S30, it'll be interesting to see if you can notice a difference. Either way, thanks for sharing your observations, it's interesting to hear the different experiences with the same steel. For what it's worth, I've never had a problem with S30 and I think all of it has come from about '07-'09. I haven't used it very hard though.

[jezabel]

I was actually wondering about this, since your descriptions seem very similar to the reports of problems with the early batches of S30V. Is the UKPK really old enough to be from the early days of S30 though? I thought the steel predated that model by some years. If you ever get a new sample of S30, it'll be interesting to see if you can notice a difference. Either way, thanks for sharing your observations, it's interesting to hear the different experiences with the same steel. For what it's worth, I've never had a problem with S30 and I think all of it has come from about '07-'09. I haven't used it very hard though.

ditto... I've wondered if I've just had bad batch, and that things might have improved recently. All my S30V blades are from '08.

Jez

[toomzz]

S30V is a good all round steel but I think its way over rated. Its difficult to heat treat and when its done right, its very good. However, to me, I believe VG10 is a better all round steel than S30V.

I will state here and now I prefer VG10 over S30V. I have had too many issues with microchipping in production company S30V blades for it to be a co-incidence. None of my custom knives in S30V exhibit any such issues. So it is the steel and its not. If that makes sense. Its a difficult steel to get right and I believe in knives made to a price in a production methodology its not an ideal steel on many levels.

(

I fully agree with the General. I like VG10 over S30V. It´s a little easier to resharpen. I had some issues with chipping of VG10, but that is ok. But there is another issue between VG10 and S30V. Somehow I cannot manage to get a S30V mirrorpolished. It always keeps a hazy blue glare while VG10 becomes a ´golden mirror´. I am not an expert but over the last 20 years I had my experiences with all kinds of cuttingsteels as an user. Just look at the factory finish of a US-S30V blade and a japanese VG10 blade. A VG10 blade looks more finely grained when you let the light play over the steel, golden glared. I almost looks like the texture of very fine wood, like a good polish of a japanese sword in itame hada-grain. It is more 'alive'. I like THAT a lot and I am convinced that some of the old japanese black-smith techniques are used in Japan making modern highgrade production (cutting)steels. A S30V blade looks more granular, a little more dense, with often a striped polished or grinded surface, blueish in the light. I am convinced it is a very good high grade steel but somehow it makes me remember of the the steel used in AK-bajonets. I tried to polish my Sage, but I can't simply produce a mirror.

Back to the topic, talking about ZDP. Indeed, it is harder to to resharpen, but boy, with a steeper edge, really sharp, this is a nasty cutting steel. Just touching your skin, it directly bites in to it.

These three steels compared for me, is; first VG10, than ZDP, last S30V. When you carry a knife and you use it a lot and have some knowlegde of resharpening it in a correct way, just pick a VG10 blade. Somehow I try to avoid S30V blades and I would love to see certain Spydies in VG10 or ZDP in the future.

I rest my case
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[TBob]

I'm not so concerned with whether I can see my reflection in my knife's edge as I am with a well-retained, keen edge. VG-10 does OK and works well on my Endura and Delica. I EDCed both, each for several years. However, the S30v retains an excellent edge longer in my experience. Both VG-10 and S30v provide the same appearance after sharpening on the ultra fine sticks and perform well.

The beauty of Spyderco offering knives in all these flavors and more is that we can all have our favorites based on individual tastes and look forward to more. I'd personally like to see more S30v and ZDP offerings.

[toomzz]

The beauty of Spyderco offering knives in all these flavors and more is that we can all have our favorites based on individual tastes and look forward to more.

FACT, hoping that that lasts a loooong time :rolleyes:

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[TBob]

ditto... I've wondered if I've just had bad batch, and that things might have improved recently. All my S30V blades are from '08.

Jez

Two of my S30v blades date from that period and have no issues. One holds an incredibly wicked edge and ranks at the top of my favorites list. But like most production products, steel is made in batches. It's certainly possible to have bad batches of the best products. Perhaps the sintering heat and/or pressure or heat treatment of a particular batch was off. There is no perfect human-originated process.