What materials do you think a "tough" folder can't cut?

[dewildeman]

SpyderHS08, funny you should mention carpets. I'm getting some new carpet and saving a few bucks by taking out my old carpet myself. Great oportunity to compare some knives and steel. (It least I didn't make a video and post it on youtube.) I sliced and diced with a couple Striders and and Spyders and a BM, drop points and wharies, s30v, vg10, H1, 154. Long story short, the thin vg10 cut a little easier than my thicker s30v's, but not much. The thicker blades worked better at the start of a cut and poking through the carpet. None of the blades needed touched up at the end.
So, back to the OP. I don't think it so much that there are things that "hard use" blades can't cut, it just that thin blades do it with more finesse.

For those interested I used a SMF, SNG, Mule 9cr18mo, Mule s90v, Delica 4, UKPK Rescue, Urban Warnie, Persistance, Tasman, Spyerhawk and a BM 940. The Persistance and Mule s90v were my favorites to use, mainly because of the grip.

[MountainManJim]

OK, so it's late and I've been drinking, hence I'm going to chime in.

There is a bit of a problem here with definitions and the lack there of. So, for my post I'll define the two terms a little because there are numerous ways to design a knife for either classification.

Tough Knife: Tough, resilient steel. Robust tip, usually a drop point. Thick blade with a thick spine. High angle grind. I'm envisioning a folding knife with a Mora, Scandi blade as the ultimate tough knife.

Slicer (as we like to call them): As is the :spyder: way ... Hard, wear resistant steel. Fine tip. Taper from tang to tip. Full flat grind. Good example, Caly or the Urban.

As you can gather from my definitions, the Slicer is optimized (all designs are a compromise) for cutting by slicing through a material. It will outperform the Tough knife where the cutting performance must be high. Our definition of high cutting performance here is fine, precise cutting without chopping the material into little bits.

The original question was "What materials?". Fine light materials are one example. My wife has the need to cut out patterns for making clothes. The paper that the patterns are printed on is like tissue paper. Through much testing we determined that the Urban was the best performing knife (hence, I lost that knife to the wife:rolleyes :) . Drop point blades did poorly for the task because the cut performed is a pull cut. That large radiused tip of a drop point causes you to hold the knife at an uncomfortable angle that still doesn't cut was well as the wharnie blade. You may think that this is trivial, but it's a clear example where a large, thick blade is ill-suited; one tear of the pattern piece and there is one very unhappy seamstress.

Another example that has already been mention is food prep. The knife of choice in the kitchen is the chef's knife. You will not find anyone using a Bowie for cutting food if they have a choice. The chef's knife has all the qualities of a high performance slicing folder.

Skin is another material for the slicer. For minor (or major) surgeries I want that fine tip e.g. splinter removal.

Beyond specific materials, the Slicer out performs in various tasks. Its tip is better for finer tasks and where a sharp tip is needed e.g. cutting a small item without cutting the surrounding material or pierce a material. The hard steel is superior for edge retention; AUS8 just doesn't cut it (pun intended). When whittling wood, the softer steels lose their edge quickly and I want clean cuts throughout the day’s whittling. When I'm trying to start a small hole in an item I'm not reaching for my Mora; its for big holes in hard materials. (I carry both a Mora and a small blade around the homestead)

The flat grind provides better slicing both in the force required to slice through the material and the quality of the cut. A high angled blade grind is going to slice more like an axe than the FFG blade. And, as we know the axe is meant for chopping, not slicing. Hence, the Slicer simple performs better for the task of slicing; less resistance, cleaner cuts.

Where the Slicer has performance issues is in toughness. Hard steels are brittle, meaning they break without bending or warning. Combine that with thin, fine tip and you have people breaking tips because they weren't careful.

Again, all designs are a trade off the various parameters of a design. Strength vs toughness. Weight vs strength. Different characteristics of the various blade shapes. Slicing resistance versus blade strength. Etc, Etc.

OK, I'm done now.

Jim

[SolidState]

My thin, ceramic slicer can slice things thinner than an abuse-rated folder could ever be able to come even close to.

That being said, my ceramic santoku stays in my kitchen knife block and never leaves the house. I carry abuse-rated when I'm camping or doing yard work in case something goes wrong. I carry slicers when I'm at work in the lab or when I have other tools to do the "heavy" work. Heavy-use-rated is for the times when the knife IS the multitool in your life. I don't feel that I'm uncommon in that.

I also go for fixed blades at a certain point because at a certain level of hard use, you really want a fixed blade. I would prefer a rock salt to a manix in a jungle-survival situation. Does a Manix beat a dragonfly ffg in jungle survival? Yes. Does it beat it in discreetly opening a cd case in the mall? Not at all. A bug wins that one. A tiny, tiny slicer wins that one.

I guess my hard-use knives, and even some of the slicier knives can't scare NKPs less than my bug. My non-carbon-fiber balance is going to be similarly slicey and not scary for NKPs. If I had to sell all but one of my folders, I would keep a hard-use folder just in case I needed it.
Meh

[chuck_roxas45]

Of course it is a given that slicers make better slicers than "tough" folders. That is not the point. The point is, is the slicer that much better at slicing that it makes the "tough" folder irrelevant in cutting tasks?

I submit that the difference is not all that much. There are tradeoffs as we all know, but can the slicer perform slicing tasks that the "tough" can't do near well enough? The point in slicing an apple is to cut it to pieces, the "tough" can do that. How much better cutting performance do you need to slice an apple to bite size pieces? How much better performance does a slicer have that cutting a cheese into slices is considered difficult for a tough folder?

And yes, we should pick the right tool for the right job when we have the luxury of that.

[The Deacon]

Of course it is a given that slicers make better slicers than "tough" folders. That is not the point. The point is, is the slicer that much better at slicing that it makes the "tough" folder irrelevant in cutting tasks?

I submit that the difference is not all that much. There are tradeoffs as we all know, but can the slicer perform slicing tasks that the "tough" can't do near well enough? The point in slicing an apple is to cut it to pieces, the "tough" can do that. How much better cutting performance do you need to slice an apple to bite size pieces? How much better performance does a slicer have that cutting a cheese into slices is considered difficult for a tough folder?

And yes, we should pick the right tool for the right job when we have the luxury of that.

In nearly sixty years of carrying a knife daily, I've never been in a situation where I wished I had something "tougher", but I've been in a couple where I wished I had something capable of more finesse. So yes, to me a slicer performs the tasks I carry a knife for "that much better".

To me, it's not a question of "can't cut", but a question of "can't cut cleanly" or "can't cut as efficiently", and the list of materials where the necessarily thick blade the term "tough folder" implies would fail those respects would be nearly endless. I could cut an apple in half with a hacksaw, or a steel rule, but what would it prove?

I have yet to read where anyone has said that "tough" or "hard use" folders should not exist for those who want them. What people do object to is the idea of revising an existing knife that serves the purposes of 99% of its owners to suit the purposes of the 1% who'd be better served by a different model. That's because the trade offs for "toughness" are almost always efficiency, finesse, or both. Try picking a splinter out with a chisel ground tanto.

[chuck_roxas45]

Try picking a splinter out with a chisel ground tanto.

That's what the military in the other pocket is for. :D

Besides how often is splinter pickin' an EDC task? 90 percent?

PS: I don't like tanto tips.

PPS: We can stop this right now. :D

[JNewell]

I have to confess that this question has somewhat puzzled me as well, even though I'm not part of the Hard Use Cabal(tm). I suppose that it won't do as well if you want to thin-slice things like apples or carrots...other than that...????

I keep hearing that "tough" folders can't cut. So what materials do you guys often come across that need cutting, that a tough folder can't cut? I'm sure there are job related tasks like Unit's that really require an optimized cutter but for most of the people carrying and using knives, what do you use your slicing knife on that can't be cut by a "tough" folder?

Lemme add something:
What tasks that thin knives do that "tough" can't do well enough? Let's take slicing a tomato for a BLT samwich, "tough" won't cut it as thin as thin knives but they can cut it well enough to use in the BLT. Or say cheese,( :D smile) I'd think a tough knife can cut cheese well enough to make it into bite size pieces.

[flipe8]

In nearly sixty years of carrying a knife daily, I've never been in a situation where I wished I had something "tougher",

When I saw this thread, my initial reaction was to pose the question "How many times has someone actually been "under-knifed"?" And I'm not talking about the times we need to cut through a car hood or drive our knives through a steel drum, as much as I know this happens at least once every other week...Eventhough I currently carry a 3" XM-18, I never encountered a situation when I EDC'd a Dragonfly where I threw my hands up in the air in failure.

[chuck_roxas45]

When I saw this thread, my initial reaction was to pose the question "How many times has someone actually been "under-knifed"?" And I'm not talking about the times we need to cut through a car hood or drive our knives through a steel drum, as much as I know this happens at least once every other week...Eventhough I currently carry a 3" XM-18, I never encountered a situation when I EDC'd a Dragonfly where I threw my hands up in the air in failure.

If you have never needed a "tougher" knife and have no desire for one, then that is your choice. I have no problems with that.

[The General]

There is a stone in my back garden that keeps tigers away.

How is that possible?

I don't see any tigers in Wales, do you? :rolleyes:

[v8r]

I keep hearing that "tough" folders can't cut. So what materials do you guys often come across that need cutting, that a tough folder can't cut? I'm sure there are job related tasks like Unit's that really require an optimized cutter but for most of the people carrying and using knives, what do you use your slicing knife on that can't be cut by a "tough" folder?

Lemme add something:
What tasks that thin knives do that "tough" can't do well enough? Let's take slicing a tomato for a BLT samwich, "tough" won't cut it as thin as thin knives but they can cut it well enough to use in the BLT. Or say cheese,( :D smile) I'd think a tough knife can cut cheese well enough to make it into bite size pieces.

I have a Pampered Chef cheese Knife that my wife bought me that really works well for cutting cheese, but it is kinda specialized.......don't know how well it would work for digging up landmines and battoning through 2x4s :D

[The Mentaculous]

There is a stone in my back garden that keeps tigers away.

How is that possible?

I don't see any tigers in Wales, do you? :rolleyes:

amazing...I'd like to buy your stone.

[The General]

amazing...I'd like to buy your stone.

Unless your name is Homer... its not for sale.

[jackknifeh]

As far as I know the only difference in any folder and a fixed blade is the joint. How well the joint and/or lock holds up is what makes a folder tough or not. Other than that any folder can cut anything that a knife is supposed to cut but if you can twist (a little bit) a folder while cutting wood or something and it doesn't result in play in the joint I think the folder is tough. Anything more than that get a fixed blade and have fun abusing it a little.

Here is where my stupidity comes into play. I'll pay a lot of money for a "tough" folder so it will be able to withstand hard work. Then I don't want to use it in rough environments because of weather, dirty work, etc. because I paid so much for it. I should just stick with my Byrd Wings knife which is the best "work" knife I have. It is inexpensive enough to treat hard and not worry about the money and it has been "tough" enough for me up to now. I did chip the blade on it the other day because of the low angle I put on the edge. My stupidity continues.

Jack

[npueppke]

It can't cut peanut butter and jelly :-P

[The General]

As far as I know the only difference in any folder and a fixed blade is the joint. How well the joint and/or lock holds up is what makes a folder tough or not. Other than that any folder can cut anything that a knife is supposed to cut but if you can twist (a little bit) a folder while cutting wood or something and it doesn't result in play in the joint I think the folder is tough. Anything more than that get a fixed blade and have fun abusing it a little.

Here is where my stupidity comes into play. I'll pay a lot of money for a "tough" folder so it will be able to withstand hard work. Then I don't want to use it in rough environments because of weather, dirty work, etc. because I paid so much for it. I should just stick with my Byrd Wings knife which is the best "work" knife I have. It is inexpensive enough to treat hard and not worry about the money and it has been "tough" enough for me up to now. I did chip the blade on it the other day because of the low angle I put on the edge. My stupidity continues.

Jack

Not at all! How many Land Rovers do you see around that have never had any mud on them?

People buy overbuilt. Just in case. Even if it means the knife does not cut as well or drive as well on the roads. Just in case... :rolleyes:

Which brings me back to the Manix 1, the big boy. The most tanksome tough son of a knife I have ever used. Tougher than a very tough Llandudno seagull. It was nigh on perfection in a tough folder.

Yet it was disco'd.

[flipe8]

Eventhough I currently carry a 3" XM-18,

If you have never needed a "tougher" knife and have no desire for one, then that is your choice.

I like "tougher" knives but have used less stout knives for difficult tasks without issue.

[The Deacon]

When I saw this thread, my initial reaction was to pose the question "How many times has someone actually been "under-knifed"?" And I'm not talking about the times we need to cut through a car hood or drive our knives through a steel drum, as much as I know this happens at least once every other week...Eventhough I currently carry a 3" XM-18, I never encountered a situation when I EDC'd a Dragonfly where I threw my hands up in the air in failure.

Exactly.

Another thing I've never experienced is a situation where I felt the need for a sturdy knife and could not carry a fixed blade. I've found that even states that have blade length limits and frown on fixed blades being carried in cities don't give a crap what's in your pocket or on your belt when you're out in the boonies as long as your not engaging in genuinely anti-social behavior. Not to say such places does not exist, but they'd certainly be the exception rather than the norm.

[v8r]

That is for the times when the get off the road a little to get their mail out of the mail box!

[unit]

Two days ago an old college buddy came in to see me. While I had my back to him (on the phone) he walked up and yanked my purple Endura from my pocket and started looking at it. I knew it was him, and since he is an FBI agent I was pretty sure I need not go into SD mode.

He examined the knife and commented on how I did a complete regrind on the already thin FFG blade, he also noticed the really low bevel angle, he also remarked about the file work on the lock bar...but what he tripped on the most was the fact that I was carrying a purple knife.

I told him, "I like it, what else needs to be discussed?". He closed the knife and handed it back to me and without another word we went to lunch and caught up on old times.

I think the lesson here is that we are all different and we all have preferences. Let's focus on the friendships we have made instead of some silly differences we have regarding each others preferences for carry. The only person you should ever defend your EDC choices to is YOU.

Have a nice day, and thanks for reading.