Is "hard use" the new "tactical"?

[chuck_roxas45]

IMO that I know is worthless to you... You are overly sensitive to anything about tough knives. Alot of what you say makes sense but you group it as persecution.

I read what you have to say, I process it, and I make my own picks.

I like tough knives that also cut. You seem borderline hostile to anybody that posts that isnt on your side.

I didnt pick the millie because I needed it to cut carrots.

Not at all. I am just tired of people wanting us pro "tough folder" to explain why there's a "need" for tough folders when they can get by on whatever folders they like. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. It just doesn't feel right that somebody who comes late to the discussion starts calling our choices dumb, or stupid or asks an explanation why.

[sal]

Hi Chuck,

It seems, to me at least, that there seems to have recently decended on our forums a group of "self appointed hard use mafia". It appears as though they want to hijack any thread mentioning "hard use" and turn it into an "I'm gonna break the tip on your Spyderco" and argue why a knife is not considered hard use unless you going to "pry, hammer, dig and twist" with it. I think you know the "group" to which I am referring.

They also give the impression that if you are not using a "hard use" knife by their definition of hard use, that we are somehow ignorant or stupid for not agreeing with you.

This group seems to be using the definition created by a competitor and arguing for its validity. The argument that you are "better prepared" is just another marketing strategy. Really being prepared is having the right tool for the right job.

Mr. Ankerson's "hards use" tests are unscientific, not repeatable and seem to be more marketing than testing. There is no "use" in them. Just an attempt to break the knife. If fact, break certain knives. In mhy opinion, they seem to have been created for the purpose of making Spyderco look bad. Especially when I see how the follow up discussions play out. Trying to make other companies look bad in an attemtp to make your own look better is marketing, not testing. It's also not our style to try to make other companies look lesser.

Perhaps many knife afi's don't have the same opinion of what you consider "hard use". You don't have to defend your opinion, it's you opinion. Discussion is ok, agreement is not necessary.

We broke the lock on your precious. It did very well. Very heavy duty (MBC). Up there with the Axis lock, Compression lock, heavy duty lock-backs (like the Chinook and Manix) and ball bearing lock on the Manix2. Not better, just up there.

If I were going to do a hard use test, I would be cutting things and measuring results. How does this knive cut kevlar, poly rope, hemp rope tires, and does it still cut after the test. Is it comfortable to use for hard use? Does it have a clip, and if so, is the clip comfortable? How does it work in adverse conditions, salt water, cold, heat, mud, etc. Is it easy to access in a bad situation? Will it stay sharp and useable throughout the test?

"Coming late" to the discussion is meaningless. I'm sure there are many that have been wathcing this "war" since Mr. Ankerson first aired his amateur video.

If Mr. Ankerson's tests were truly tryng to "improve" knives, he would have sent the video to us, rather than air it, explaining what happened and we could have corrected any problems without the drama and cost. It appears to me that Mr. Ankerrson was trying to "prove" something with his tests and his "support group" chimned in. At least that is my opinion.

sal

[chuck_roxas45]

Sal

I don't know if you were able to follow a thread here before Jim's series of tests. I was then already of the opinion that the millie's tip was thin I and that I would have to be quite careful in how I used it.

So no, I'm not of Jim's support group. It's just my opinion, that I think, I have as much right as anybody else, to present.

[sal]

Hi Chuck,

Of course you are entitled to you opinion. If enough of our customers request that we make the tip of the Military thicker, we can. I use a Millie quite a bit and have not had a problem, but we usually yield to our customers requests.

As it is right now, we 're going to create a new design to serve the thick tip customer. No problem.

There's not many folding knives out there that will cut or poke alongside of our current Military.

sal

[chuck_roxas45]

Hi Chuck,

Of course you are entitled to you opinion. If enough of our customers request that we make the tip of the Military thicker, we can. I use a Millie quite a bit and have not had a problem, but we usually yield to our customers requests.

As it is right now, we 're going to create a new design to serve the thick tip customer. No problem.

There's not many folding knives out there that will cut or poke alongside of our current Military.

sal

No Sal, don't get me wrong. I like the millie as it is. I just stated something that I observed. I will just get something else if I need a fatter tip.

[flipe8]

So no, I'm not of Jim's support group. It's just my opinion, that I think, I have as much right as anybody else, to present.

I won't speak for others, but I think you have every right to voice your opinion here. That being said, you present your opinion in a somewhat different way on other forums than you do here. When it appears you've taken enjoyment by how things played out, you shouldn't be surprised if your posts are viewed with suspicion by forum members here. Take it for what it is, or don't.

[Ankerson]

Sal,

I don't think anyone is saying that all knives have to be built like Hummers to be good, I know that I am not saying that, never have.

I does seem however that there are those that seem to think that every knife has to be Tailor made to cut a bag of chips open and anything more than that is useless. I know that is exaggerating but you get the point.

Personally I like choices. :D

I carry my Endura 4 FFG more than any other knife and have since I got it. :spyder:

Still waiting on the Para 2's to be back in stock, mine is on BO.

Just say'n. :)


Jim

[chuck_roxas45]

When it appears you've taken enjoyment by how things played out, you shouldn't be surprised if your posts are viewed with suspicion by forum members here. Take it for what it is, or don't.

I actually enjoyed the validation of my belief that "man does not live by thin folders alone but also with tough folders too". :D

[Blerv]

I appreciate everyone on this forum but it seems many forget how many dang knives Spyderco makes. Go to the catalog section of the site and set it to "All".

If you can't find a Spyderco to serve your purpose chance are it's right around the corner. If it's not, chances are it's your fault. :p

It's not arrogant to think your specific cause is unique amongst everyone in the entire world and nobody builds a knife that will be adequate. It just means you need to have a custom knife built. You better skip the mortgage payment though.

[Ankerson]

I appreciate everyone on this forum but it seems many forget how many dang knives Spyderco makes. Go to the catalog section of the site and set it to "All".

If you can't find a Spyderco to serve your purpose chance are it's right around the corner. If it's not, chances are it's your fault. :p

It's not arrogant to think your specific cause is unique amongst everyone in the entire world and nobody builds a knife that will be adequate. It just means you need to have a custom knife built. You better skip the mortgage payment though.

I know, they make a ton of different models. :D

Some of us do have some custom knives along with semi customs. :)

[shu]

Here we go again Jim, having to justify our choice on a point by point basis, whew! I'm getting tired of people from the anti tough folder camp really nitpicking our choice from all directions.

Chuck, I did not ask Jim to justify anything, I was just curious about his location based on his comments to date.

I am just tired of people wanting us pro "tough folder" to explain why there's a "need" for tough folders when they can get by on whatever folders they like. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion. It just doesn't feel right that somebody who comes late to the discussion starts calling our choices dumb, or stupid or asks an explanation why.

Methinks you should try to be as tough as your folders...


See, I have a fair bit of experience using knives for purposes that are considered actual hard use. I served in the infantry, my job requires I work outdoors on a regular basis, most of my hobbies revolve around being outside.

Yet I use a Para extensively while working in the field and have never broken the tip.

I find the handiest knife for yardwork is a Tasman Salt.

I cut up my last elk with a fairly light 3" FB.

I actually prefer carrying a small fixed blade in the office as I find that pulling it out of its sheath excites fewer people than flicking open my PPT (great knife BTW, is it 'hard use'?).

Because in my experience using any tool depends not so much on the tool as it does on user knowledge.


You are, of course, welcome to your opinion as well, but realize it is not better than anyone else's:

"All good, just different."

[The General]

I own a few custom knives.

I have one in front of me that has a value of about $1500. Or 7 Spyderco knives of good quality.

Customs are great, hand made, fit and finish is excellent. However... Would you abuse a knife like that?

I would feel bad abusing a Byrd knife.

Because to me, they are all tools and I only carry a knife that has pedigree and I know it will sound silly but a knife that's from a maker or company I respect.

Its why I sold off most of my knives from "that" company. Its why I do not carry or EDC knives from "that" company. Made on a bench lost a lot of business from me.

A good knife from a good company has honour, it deserves to be treated with respect and due care. Thats how I feel about it but come a life or death situation or similar, ****, I will abuse the **** out of a knife to get the job done. I have done in the past and will do in the future.

[JNewell]

At the end of the day, if a knife has a bullet-proof lock and a pry-proof blade, but won't take and hold a keen cutting edge, it is of no use to me - at least not as a knife.

I can figure out how to work around a broken lock or a broken tip. I cannot work around a blade that just won't sharpen up or stay sharp.

[v8r]

Chuck your opinion is just as welcome as anyone else's.With that said what is wrong with somebody expressing a opinion that is different than yours?Does post count make you a " Johnny come lately". Everyone has a right to disagree, or agree no matter if they have a high post count or they are a Johnny come lately.

I happen to like larger folders myself.Not really for their inherent "toughness", but because I have fairly large hands.I don't feel I would personally ever need a knife in a self defense situation, I lack the training as I would suspect most people here do.I have a 1911 if I feel my life is in danger that I carry every day.

[unit]

At the end of the day, if a knife has a bullet-proof lock and a pry-proof blade, but won't take and hold a keen cutting edge, it is of no use to me - at least not as a knife.

I can figure out how to work around a broken lock or a broken tip. I cannot work around a blade that just won't sharpen up or stay sharp.

I can respect this. To your point a lot of guys at my work use razor blades with no holder whatsoever for their cutting tasks. Removing the lock and handle completely still allows cutting tasks to be performed. Having a locking handle and dull blade would be a zero value item to them.

[Blerv]

I know, they make a ton of different models. :D

Some of us do have some custom knives along with semi customs. :)

That initial thought was more along the line of, "Why isn't ___ flat ground?" or, "Why on Earth doesn't ____ have jimping?".

I have no problem with tough knives or slicers. They are all part of the spectrum. I haven't ever seen a Spyderco that wasn't a great slicing knife but some that don't slice "as well".

The Tuff should have a place in my heart even if I don't buy it. It's great to see a company that caters to so many different snobs. Any company that makes rugged tool-steel folders, exotic stainless slicers, and rust-proof hawkbills doesn't leave much room for competitors (in my book). :)

[Ankerson]

At the end of the day, if a knife has a bullet-proof lock and a pry-proof blade, but won't take and hold a keen cutting edge, it is of no use to me - at least not as a knife.

I can figure out how to work around a broken lock or a broken tip. I cannot work around a blade that just won't sharpen up or stay sharp.

I have some tougher folders that will take a keen edge and stay sharp as they are premium steel. :)

That initial thought was more along the line of, "Why isn't ___ flat ground?" or, "Why on Earth doesn't ____ have jimping?".

I have no problem with tough knives or slicers. They are all part of the spectrum. I haven't ever seen a Spyderco that wasn't a great slicing knife but some that don't slice "as well".

The Tuff should have a place in my heart even if I don't buy it. It's great to see a company that caters to so many different snobs. Any company that makes rugged tool-steel folders, exotic stainless slicers, and rust-proof hawkbills doesn't leave much room for competitors (in my book). :)

I am looking forward to the Tuff as I know it will be very high quality and very strong. Might not slice like an Endura, but after I get done with it cutting and slicing won't be a problem.

[The Deacon]

I am looking forward to the Tuff as I know it will be very high quality and very strong. Might not slice like an Endura, but after I get done with it cutting and slicing won't be a problem.

Plan on dropping off the top of the Empire State building? :rolleyes:

[psychophipps]

The part of the "Tough Folder" I don't really get is that the toughest folder won't hold up to the toughness of a good fixed blade with the same materials. I don't care who makes it, even the nigh legendary toughness of a Strider folder doesn't hold up to his fixed blades at around 50-60% of the cost of a folder. I can see where tough can come in handy but "tough, but not as tough as something that costs 40 to 50% less" strikes me as being a waste of good money if you intend to really kick the snot out of your knives from the get-go.

Buy the right tool for the job at the right price already... :rolleyes:

[Ankerson]

Plan on dropping off the top of the Empire State building? :rolleyes:

Hardly. ROFL :D

Won't know what I will do with it until I have one in hand, I will likely test it though then put it in my EDC Rotation.

That's the plan anyway as of now. :spyder:

The part of the "Tough Folder" I don't really get is that the toughest folder won't hold up to the toughness of a good fixed blade with the same materials. I don't care who makes it, even the nigh legendary toughness of a Strider folder doesn't hold up to his fixed blades at around 50-60% of the cost of a folder. I can see where tough can come in handy but "tough, but not as tough as something that costs 40 to 50% less" strikes me as being a waste of good money if you intend to really kick the snot out of your knives from the get-go.

Buy the right tool for the job at the right price already... :rolleyes:

Not everyone can carry a fixed blade as an EDC so the hard use folder is a replacement for a fixed blade when one can't carry them for various reasons.

Most Hard Use folders are around 4" or so blade length so carrying a 4" fixed blade in most places.... Well check the local laws before doing so to make sure what you can and can't carry. That's State, County and City laws as they can vary depending on were you live.