VG-10 and RUST - or just get H1?

[Pete1977]

You may not have noticed, but some of the activities that contribute to the "high stress" environment of a commercial fishing boat would also make it difficult to do real-time recording with any precision.

you beat me to it... :D

[The Deacon]

Pete, you'd have better luck trying to talk sense to a cod.

[TBob]

This has all been somewhat amusing. What I see here is a classic argument of laboratory testing vs. field testing. Lab results can be useful in defining design trade spaces and making trade-offs. But they cannot substitute for field tests by actual users. Both types of tests are good and useful, but the ultimate measure of effectiveness rests with the user's experience with the product.

Last I checked, Spyderco (or anyone else) doesn't make knives only for use by lab technicians in the lab, but for a variety of tasks accomplished by folks who may use the knives as designed and often also use them in unexpected ways.

Nor are answers absolute. We've seen in this thread how folks have used VG-10 knives w/no rust issues from sweat, etc., and others who have had a slightly different experience. How and when a user cleans, sharpens, and cuts with a particular blade, as well as what they cut and how often, will vary widely and often produce different field experiences. Lab testing can usually point us in the right direction (that's largely why we do it), but must be verified in the field. We can all cite examples where a product found superior in the lab lost in the market place to an "inferior" product (by lab accounting) that users ultimately preferred.

Neither lab nor field testing is "better." I've made a living doing both, sometimes at the same time. They each serve different purposes to a common end. Ultimately, the entire process comes down to the user's experience with the product. The customer defines value.

[nozh2002]

I don't grasp how real world experiences mean nothing and the testing of different steels in different blade configurations with different heat treatments are the end all be all of knife knowledge. There are too many variables to your tests. The most glaring one being that you cut manila rope to the point of injury or pain to your hands and wrists (which you state often) . How can you be sure that the pressure you are applying on your final cuts is the same pressure that you began your test with? How can you be sure that two very similar steels are superior or inferior to one another if they dull at very similar rates when the tie breaker between them is influenced by the exhaustion or pain in your hand?

Clearly, in your own words, you cut manila rope until your wrist is injured and needs recovery time. You don't think that this bears any influence on your analysis of edge retention in regards to cutting strength, pressure, force what have you on the rope? Could your results show that your wrist injury caused you to cut with less pressure and force towards the end of your testing session instead of a diminished edge retention?

I think that you put forth a good effort and want to share your information with the knife community but to suggest your tests to a prospective new knife owner as fact and continuously assert that real world testing has no bearing on the selection of a particular knife does the whole knife community a disservice.

Again you real world experience has no value for others until you describe it, until you share it.

I sharpen knives to same sharpness - it should whittle hair.
Then I tests sharpness using statistical thread cutting test - what is "median average" of 21 cuts for weight needed to cut cotton thread.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=noz ... Ftbus7LbtU

Then I cut manila rope and measure sharpness again.
Then I cut manila rope to 10 times and measure sharpness again.
Then I measure sharpness after 50, 100 and 200 cuts.

In result I have set of numbers like this (Bushcraft O1):

Cut oz
000 1.0
001 2.0
010 3.5
050 4.0
100 5.5
200 6.0

All this numbers are here:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila ... sults.html

I cut it by same part of the blade, I do not pay attention on how hard it is to cut - this depends on blade thickness and all other non steel related parameters. For uncomfortable knives my wrist got hurt, however this does not affect load I put on the edge - it is 200 cuts any way, it just coast me more.

I measure only very edge - what actually affects thread. It does not depend on blade length, width, thickness, handle etc... I think it may depends on edge angle and I sharpen all knives same 30 degree.

This gave me idea on how edge condition evolves during same amount of load for different steel from different manufacturers.

Thanks, Vassili.

[nozh2002]

when I say "two or three times" I am implying 2 or 3 days of using the knife on the boat, not 2 or 3 instances of cutting during that day. I cut literally 50 to 100 times a day some days and cut anything from twine to plastic bottles to rope that has sat on the ocean floor and is impregnated with sand.

Ok, let it be days or cuts - this is still numbers. It may be quantified some other way - you should know this better then me. But my point is - it is always possible to get some numeric data, which can be then analyzed.

Thanks, Vassili.

[Pete1977]

Describe what? when i am actually using my knife at work i have more pressing issues at hand than recording numbers that have little to no relevance to the average knife user. It is obvious that you put a lot of thought and effort into your testing methodology and the tests themselves however you continually state that unless something is quantified numerically that the results are invalid. plainly you are wrong. read my reviews here and on bladeforums. i describe to the best of my abilities what i use my knives for and evaluate the knife as a whole. i am not saying i am correct in my testing methods by any means. what i am saying is that real world usage and evaluation and the information garnered from this experience is just as valid in determining knife performance as are numbers on a page.

[dj moonbat]

There are certainly people who could "crunch the numbers" and yield some chart that supposedly clears up all the decision-making around knives if we all just described our methods, and recorded our results. But before we got any stable methodologies that would let us standardize results, we would get tons of critique directed at the proposed methodolgies (what we have in this thread).

In the interim, there's no reason to reject the empirical evidence of rugged users -- whether that empirical observation has been rigorously quantified or not. When people who use a tool daily tell you one tool is better than another, and they can tell you why -- they just can't say by exactly how much -- why not avail yourself of that expertise?

[nozh2002]

Describe what? when i am actually using my knife at work i have more pressing issues at hand than recording numbers that have little to no relevance to the average knife user. It is obvious that you put a lot of thought and effort into your testing methodology and the tests themselves however you continually state that unless something is quantified numerically that the results are invalid. plainly you are wrong. read my reviews here and on bladeforums. i describe to the best of my abilities what i use my knives for and evaluate the knife as a whole. i am not saying i am correct in my testing methods by any means. what i am saying is that real world usage and evaluation and the information garnered from this experience is just as valid in determining knife performance as are numbers on a page.

Again - I did not say that I do not value your finding without numbers. I already did, BTW. Numbers gives better understanding if you try to test more then 2 knives, doing this not side by side.

My point is simple.

One thing is to say - I disagree with you and your tests!

Another things - I have use Buck 110 420HC side to side with Spyderco H1 knife (sorry I miss the model) on several 2-3 days lobster boat trips when I cut 50 to 100 times a day some days and cut anything from twine to plastic bottles to rope that has sat on the ocean floor and is impregnated with sand. And Buck 110 stop working much earlier then Spyderco H1 knife, which is for this reason my knife of chose for this job.

One is useless and rather confrontational, other - provides valuable information and very interesting point I did not think about before.

Based on this I may think that exposure to salt water is key here and similar performance I have on my tests is due to absence of salt water around me when I tested. Probably because of very edge corrosion. I may then try to do my edge tests on different knives (same Buck 420HC and Spyderco Salt I have) before and after salt water somehow. I need to think on how to do this without damaging blade by corrosion, because I also buy all my knives I tested.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I start testing end of 2005

[dj moonbat]

P.S. I start testing end of 2005

1. Since that time, would you say:

[ ] Your wrists can perform more repetitions with the same amount of pain?
[ ] Your wrists can perform more repetitions with a lesser amount of pain?
[ ] Your wrists cannot tolerate the same number of repetitions?

2. Please quantify your response to Question 1, with reference to all knives tested since 2005.

Thank you. Turn in your test to the proctor on your way out.

[nozh2002]

1. Since that time, would you say:

[ ] Your wrists can perform more repetitions with the same amount of pain?
[ ] Your wrists can perform more repetitions with a lesser amount of pain?
[ ] Your wrists cannot tolerate the same number of repetitions?

2. Please quantify your response to Question 1, with reference to all knives tested since 2005.

Thank you. Turn in your test to the proctor on your way out.

Thanks for you compassion, Vassili.

[The General]

Pete, you'd have better luck trying to talk sense to a cod.

Agreed!

[dj moonbat]

Thanks for you compassion, Vassili.

Thanks for MY compassion? You've been hassling people because they don't systematize their results. You've built a system, but have treated wrist pain as a static quantity, rather than a variable! How the **** is that going to help anybody try to reproduce your results?

[nozh2002]

Thanks for MY compassion? You've been hassling people because they don't systematize their results. You've built a system, but have treated wrist pain as a static quantity, rather than a variable! How the **** is that going to help anybody try to reproduce your results?

Thanks for you understanding! Vassili.

[dj moonbat]

Yw

[dbcad]

This thread has turned. It was about vg-10 vs rust resistance vs H1. Edge retention came in and it devolved from there.

I too have a scientific bent due to my having studied physics seriously years ago. I appreciate Vassili's tests and give them merit for tests conducted in an environment as controlled as he tries to make it. That is the way scientific tests try to be conducted, in a controlled environment collecting data. I'm glad he enjoys doing them and take into account the data he produces. It is the most scientific information from an informal source that I've seen.

I also enjoy real world information that tries to predict how things act in an uncontrolled environment. That happens everytime I or anyone uses their knives. This information is also valuable and valid. One does not negate the other.

These 2 types of information should compliment each other. Take each in the way it was created and use it to create an overall view of the issue at hand. That view will be personal to each individual and will not be better or worse than any other view.

I have to use my H1 serrated blades more often so I can give my $0.02 on that one. They do seem sharper than the PE H1.

I appreciate your testing Vassili. It helps me to get a much more informed view.

Charlie

[nozh2002]

This thread has turned. It was about vg-10 vs rust resistance vs H1. Edge retention came in and it devolved from there.

I too have a scientific bent due to my having studied physics seriously years ago. I appreciate Vassili's tests and give them merit for tests conducted in an environment as controlled as he tries to make it. That is the way scientific tests try to be conducted, in a controlled environment collecting data. I'm glad he enjoys doing them and take into account the data he produces. It is the most scientific information from an informal source that I've seen.

I also enjoy real world information that tries to predict how things act in an uncontrolled environment. That happens everytime I or anyone uses their knives. This information is also valuable and valid. One does not negate the other.

These 2 types of information should compliment each other. Take each in the way it was created and use it to create an overall view of the issue at hand. That view will be personal to each individual and will not be better or worse than any other view.

I have to use my H1 serrated blades more often so I can give my $0.02 on that one. They do seem sharper than the PE H1.

I appreciate your testing Vassili. It helps me to get a much more informed view.

Charlie

Thank you very much for kind words, which I do not hear too often.

As I sad before "knife science" is in embrio state - there is not enough observation to analyze and came with some theory. In this terms more data recorded, collected and published - better. It does not matter is it set up like I have or natural/job environment Pete1977 have.

But it is critical to have those data-results-observation available and more detail we have - better. Now days it is pretty easy - open blog and publish there anything.

I doubt we will have this science will have enough attention to be developed to the level as microelectronics or nuclear physics, until some new invention - some force field obsolete guns and nukes. But from other hand everybody may contribute - you do not have to learn this for 10 years (nothing to learn yet) or have expensive equipment.

Thanks, Vassili.

[Pete1977]

This thread has turned. It was about vg-10 vs rust resistance vs H1. Edge retention came in and it devolved from there.

I too have a scientific bent due to my having studied physics seriously years ago. I appreciate Vassili's tests and give them merit for tests conducted in an environment as controlled as he tries to make it. That is the way scientific tests try to be conducted, in a controlled environment collecting data. I'm glad he enjoys doing them and take into account the data he produces. It is the most scientific information from an informal source that I've seen.

I also enjoy real world information that tries to predict how things act in an uncontrolled environment. That happens everytime I or anyone uses their knives. This information is also valuable and valid. One does not negate the other.

These 2 types of information should compliment each other. Take each in the way it was created and use it to create an overall view of the issue at hand. That view will be personal to each individual and will not be better or worse than any other view.

I have to use my H1 serrated blades more often so I can give my $0.02 on that one. They do seem sharper than the PE H1.

I appreciate your testing Vassili. It helps me to get a much more informed view.

Charlie

My post may not have come across as well put as yours but I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said above.

Thank you very much for kind words, which I do not hear too often.

As I sad before "knife science" is in embrio state - there is not enough observation to analyze and came with some theory. In this terms more data recorded, collected and published - better. It does not matter is it set up like I have or natural/job environment Pete1977 have.

But it is critical to have those data-results-observation available and more detail we have - better. Now days it is pretty easy - open blog and publish there anything.

I doubt we will have this science will have enough attention to be developed to the level as microelectronics or nuclear physics, until some new invention - some force field obsolete guns and nukes. But from other hand everybody may contribute - you do not have to learn this for 10 years (nothing to learn yet) or have expensive equipment.

Thanks, Vassili.

For what it is worth, I enjoy reading your edge retention testing. I enjoyed reading Cliff Stamp's knife testing reviews as well. Don't get me wrong, I think that your tests are as scientific as one could possibly devise given the circumstances one has at their disposal.

Evaluating a knife takes many different forms. Sometimes it is easy, like your tests with the Buck 110 in 3 different steels, your tests with the Militaries in their different steels and your tests with the Mule knives. Identical knives with different steels and evaluating the steel itself.

My observations as I have said are tests of the knife as a whole. I don't have the background in metallurgy or the ability to decipher the technicalities of different steel make ups and properties. What I do have is a unique set of circumstances to test knives in an extremely harsh environment and report my rudimentary findings to other afficionados and to people with less information at their disposal. I can only report on what I see in my own knife usage and that is subjective information.

That said, if I were in the landscaping profession like the original poster, I would select the H-1 over the VG-10, especially if I did not have the time or inclination or the skill to sharpen or otherwise maintain the knife.

I would select a Salt 1 over a Delica because:

H-1 is tougher in my experience than VG-10. It is less likely to chip than deform and therefore will need less effort to bring a damaged edge back to usabilty.

H-1 is less likely to rust than VG-10. I don't mind rust on a blade (I am using a Byrd Pelican on my boat right now) but if rust resistance is a concern, H-1 will alleviate that.

The Salt has pinned construction. If you aren't one to dismantle and clean your knife, there are less parts to lose, for example, a screw backing out and disappearing into grass or dirt. Less parts to fail = better working knife.

larger opening hole- easier to deploy with gloves on or with wet or slimy hands.

H-1 is very prone to scratching but for a working knife, looks are usually least of one's concerns.

H-1 will be in my experience quite a few steps above 420 HC and if you get a serrated knife it will be only a notch below or dare I say even on par with VG-10.

Again, these are only my opinions based on actually using these knives in my day to day jobs on the water. Your mileage, as always, will vary.

[Ed Schempp]

All testing gives information, all use gives information. Every attempt to delineate and further understand steel is important. All the steel used by Spyderco has been tested on the CARTRA machine, all blades are checked for their edge geometry to compare like geometries.

There are slight differences in the optimum geometry for each steel for the user. It is good that each person experiment with their preferred choices in steel to find what works the best for them. Understand the steel that you prefer. Try and know the manufacturer of that steel. Know the manufactures of the proprietary steels. It is not much difference in knowing the manufacturer of your favorite damascus, to begin to relate to performance. I tend to get along with whatever steel that I'm carrying through understanding. All steels have their limitations and trade-offs.

All the steel commercially produced is controlled first to meet a specification, and next to be made as economically as possible. There are many margins to be confronted in the production of steel. After a certain cost point it will get no better, as the marginal performance increase costs to much for these folks to market. As a steel freak I pester these people in control. Their standard response is, "that is too expensive".

I was trying to talk Dick Barber into producing a quality commercial damascus. Dick when working for Crucible designed the S30V alloy. Sal offered to buy the test material if they would make it. It never happened. But rest assured if there is a bigger steel junkie than me it is Sal, and Sal does it to produce the best knife on the planet for you the ELU...Take Care...Ed

[TBob]

Well said, Ed.

[flash900]

H-1 will be in my experience quite a few steps above 420 HC and if you get a serrated knife it will be only a notch below or dare I say even on par with VG-10.

Pete,
Why just for the serrated version?