Manix 2 lock fails hard-use test [VID] -- thoughts?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
enduraguy
Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:38 pm

Postby enduraguy » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:16 am

I've never really understood the ''spine whack'' ''test'' either myself. Basically for the same reasons already mentioned. When during normal (or even in fantasy land...'defensive') use would the blade be whacked in such a way? Oh oh, I know! You're walking down a dark alley (for no good reason) ....your Spy-die senses are tingling, you withdraw your trustee Manix 2, and in quick flash, brandish your blade. It makes that cool 'chink!' noise as it opens. Suddenly a 'bad guy' rushes toward you. In what seems like forever, you decide rather than slashing at or stabbing your new foe, to WHACK him on the top of the head with the back side of your knife blade. Surely, this will prove a better tactical decision, and you reason, you're more likely to appeal to a judges' good side...he'll surely see your 'self defense' argument...come your day in court. The knife makes contact with the perps' skull putting him down, instantly in his tracks as he mumbles a ''aaaack....gaaaaw''. Manix 2 saves the day, or night. Thankfully, it is a ''hard use'' knife. ;) LOL

User avatar
chuck_roxas45
Member
Posts: 8677
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Small City, Philippines
Contact:

Postby chuck_roxas45 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:20 am

fair enough, so what do you think will be a valid test for a folder's lock?

cckw
Member
Posts: 688
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:49 pm
Location: Omaha NE

Postby cckw » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:21 am

I didn't read every ones posts due to my time available right now. But let me say if you take any folder and take it apart, then estimate what it can do without loosening up. If you expect more then this man showed you, then you do not understand much about physics.

I watched his Griptillain video to be sure he was not pitching one brand over another. He seems legit.

User avatar
JNewell
Member
Posts: 5046
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Land of the Bean and the Cod

Postby JNewell » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:32 am

I would guess that it is not a fluke. I'm not an engineer, but it seems to me that the lock on the Manix 2 is never going to be quite as robust as something like an Axis or "bolt action" lock. But it also seems to me that the question is whether the lock is robust enough for its intended uses.

I take Chuck's point on wanting to know how much it takes to make something fail, but the fact that this knife won't do what's shown in the videos is very unlikely to influence my buying decisions.
Blerv wrote:Great points and duly noted. :)

That last part was more of a personal note and opinion. I have a Manix2 and Superhawk and they are great just classified differently. Everything has a place.

My main issue really is the spine whack because it doesn't accurately translate to anything you would do with a knife. I don't fight tables with the spine of my knife in daily life nor could generate those forces in any practical situation (even combatives). If he did all that work and then attached it to a pole and started stabbing trees to make it fail...that would make more sense.

The real question is if this was a fluke product, bogus test or a design flaw. That's up to Spyderco to consider and act on.

User avatar
TooSharp
Member
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:04 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Postby TooSharp » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:04 am

I think the tests are valid. What if you are stuck in the woods with only your folder. It's nice to know what it can take if needed. Not my cup of tea though. Lately I have changed my carrying habits to include a fixed blade. I carry a small folder for around the office cutting tasks and keep a small to medium sized fixed blade horizontal on my belt.

2cha
Member
Posts: 1459
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Philadelphia suburbs

Postby 2cha » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:23 am

Gotta say that I found the test interesting and the results surprising. The tip break and side wobble, isn't particularly surprising, but the lock failures were.
I note that the lock "failure" wasn't a failure in the traditional sense of lock "breakage." This leads me to believe that the way the test is conducted causes the bearing to "bounce" for lack of a better word, out of locking position. As others have pointed out, this is not a failure that would put one's fingers at risk. I think a fairer test of the Manix 2 would be the "pole stab test" where the knife is affixed to the end of a pole, and repeatedly stabbed into something hard.
I don't think this would be a problem where the angle of stabbing forces the blade back toward the spine, but I now wonder if the force was in the opposite direction--like if you stabbed with the knife edge up--would the lock hold, or could it "bounce" out?

User avatar
chuck_roxas45
Member
Posts: 8677
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Small City, Philippines
Contact:

Postby chuck_roxas45 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:29 am

2cha wrote:Gotta say that I found the test interesting and the results surprising. The tip break and side wobble, isn't particularly surprising, but the lock failures were.
I note that the lock "failure" wasn't a failure in the traditional sense of lock "breakage." This leads me to believe that the way the test is conducted causes the bearing to "bounce" for lack of a better word, out of locking position. As others have pointed out, this is not a failure that would put one's fingers at risk. I think a fairer test of the Manix 2 would be the "pole stab test" where the knife is affixed to the end of a pole, and repeatedly stabbed into something hard.
I don't think this would be a problem where the angle of stabbing forces the blade back toward the spine, but I now wonder if the force was in the opposite direction--like if you stabbed with the knife edge up--would the lock hold, or could it "bounce" out?

Now we're talking.

User avatar
P40_Warhawk
Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:06 am
Location: Westchester County, NY

Postby P40_Warhawk » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:31 am

I too believe the test is valid. However, in fairness to the knife, the pivot screws should have been tightened in order to reduce the side to side play, that may have resulted in a stronger lock up.

This video brings up an issue that I always have had with the ball lock.

I own several Manix 2 variants, including; S90V CF, CTS-XHP, and the 154CM. My issue is the ball lock not traveling fully into position. In virtually all the Manix 2s I own the ball lock seems to semi engage. What I mean is this... I do get a tight lock up, however, the ball only travels a very short distance into the blade tang to get into locking position. When I turn the knife spine side down and look through the knife to see how far the ball has traveled I always find that I can see the ball, meaning it does not travel very far at all into locking position.

My thought is simple... if the ball moved further into the space between the blade slot and the "top piece of steel" thus sandwiching the ball further in... the lockup would be stronger and much more reliable.

Forgive my description. I am a Spyderco enthusiast but not adept at knife lingo.

I would appreciate your thoughts on my comment.. Am I thinking along the correct lines?

-Joe

Perry
Member
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:03 pm
Location: Valleys to my East / Plains to my West

Postby Perry » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:36 pm

Good comments overall. I must totally agree with kbuzbee, he summed it up rather well. The amount of ball travel as stated above by P40_Warhawk is seems like a solid observation.

If I might add; is lateral blade play caused by bending/flaring of the liners near the tang? Or is it caused by a stretching or distortion of the pivot? Does anyone have any experience with this? Lateral blade play seems like it would be a relatively simple fix.

User avatar
markg
Member
Posts: 2140
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Ohio

Postby markg » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:37 pm

Consider the power and problem of the internet. One person has a video where a knife lock fails and we all freak out. I have seen it happen with lots of other knives too.

But the power of the internet it is this.... There are quite a few Manix 2 knives out there being used. How many posts on forums do you read of a Manix failing under normal use or even extreme use? The key is to look for trends. For example I can find lots of issues from lots of people with Kershaw's Stud Lock.

I would like to get a lot more data before I draw any conclusions.

I don't understand the "over strike" test myself, would not my hand be where you are hitting in reality?

As for spine whacking... Depending on the knife, the test itself is abusive to the knife and will accelerate wear. Sort of like using the parking brake on your car to stop the car. Also spine whacks on hard surfaces creates a lot of vibration that can cause the one moving part to want to move. The reality is this, would you ever accidentally strike the back of the blade with this much force in a real world situation?

After watching this, I took my Manix 2, and spine whacked it a few times. Against soft surfaces and against hard ones. I cover the wood with cloth so as not to mar the wood or the knife too much. The knife held, and it passed enough for me to not worry about it. I have had liner locks and other locks fail with this test.

The Triad Lock Cold Steel uses is pretty interesting. I am considering getting a knife with the lock to try it out. It eliminates one of the weaknesses of the back lock, in that it adds a stop pin that takes the forces placed upon the blade. As tests show, it is a pretty stout lock.

TrojanDonkey
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:00 am
Location: South Carolina

Postby TrojanDonkey » Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:59 pm

I want to see how the lock holds up cutting thick cardboard and plastic day after day.I wouldn't test a handgun by shooting 5000 shots in one day.It isnt designed to get that hot.I would'nt "test" a work truck by taking it on a Baja race and then a crash derby.But thats just me.I like to see FIXED blade knives tested this hard but not my folders.This test is valid if someone wants to see which knife could take the most abuse.It is what it is and the Lawman seems like a tough knife but I want a Manix 2 still.Spyderco-I like the company(customer service),looks,steel quality and have heard a lot about Cold Steel serrations bending-I own a CS push dagger and a neck knife.Ok but below Spydie's IMHO.

User avatar
gbelleh
Member
Posts: 4824
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:16 pm
Location: Kansas

Postby gbelleh » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:16 pm

Note to self: don't repeatedly whack the spine of your Manix 2 into a block of wood.

Ok, got it.
:D :spyder:

User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 20651
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Postby Evil D » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:35 pm

jzmtl wrote:There's test and there's beat the **** out of something, and he ain't testing the knife.
That's my take on it. It's a folder, not a fixed blade. Regardless of what knife handled this "test" better, give me ANY folder on Earth and i'll break it with the right amount of "testing". Regardless of whether it's described as a hard use knife, it's still only hard use as per what you should reasonably do with a folding knife, and the tasks he used the knife for are better suited for a machete or ax. I'm not sticking up for the brand here, i'm just calling it how i see it and i think what he's doing is asking a lot of a folder regardless of what the lock design is.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

VashHash
Member
Posts: 3549
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Louisiana

Postby VashHash » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:42 pm

Well i just caught wind of this. Looks like i'll have to get out my beater manix 2 and do some serious spine whacking. i'll be back in a bit

User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 20651
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Postby Evil D » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:54 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:fair enough, so what do you think will be a valid test for a folder's lock?
Personally i don't see the point of testing it in the first place. Where is it written that a locking blade is supposed to convert to a fixed blade when locked? I think if anything it's just to prevent the blade from closing unless you want it closed...as opposed to a slipit type knife that if you had to stab into something could close on your hand. He did plenty of stabbing into the log and the lock didn't fail and close on his hand even after failing the spine whack text repeatedly. That to me says the lock did what it was supposed to do within reasonable usage. I think a solid lock is more about standing up against blade play than failing to stay locked in such an unreasonable test.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

User avatar
araneae
Member
Posts: 4707
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 pm
Location: A lil more south of the Erie shore, Ohio

Postby araneae » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:07 pm

This test is totally valid. I like to know that if I'm in the woods and the SHTF and I'm banging on the wrong side of my knife it will break. This is crucial information for knife breakers everywhere. Thank-you for bringing this to our attention.














:rolleyes:
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick

Just got: Wharncliffe & Waved D'flies

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

freedoom
Member
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:32 pm

Postby freedoom » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:13 pm

jzmtl wrote:There's test and there's beat the **** out of something, and he ain't testing the knife.
I agree. i watched the video and it just looks like he's abusing it and not doing any real testing. I don't really understand the point of the spine whack. how often are you going to hammer something with the back edge of your blade?

if you try hard enough to break something it will break eventually.

User avatar
dc50
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:07 pm
Location: Rocky Mountains AB

Postby dc50 » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:30 pm

markg wrote:Consider the power and problem of the internet. One person has a video where a knife lock fails and we all freak out. I have seen it happen with lots of other knives too.

But the power of the internet it is this.... There are quite a few Manix 2 knives out there being used. How many posts on forums do you read of a Manix failing under normal use or even extreme use? The key is to look for trends. For example I can find lots of issues from lots of people with Kershaw's Stud Lock.

I would like to get a lot more data before I draw any conclusions.

I don't understand the "over strike" test myself, would not my hand be where you are hitting in reality?

As for spine whacking... Depending on the knife, the test itself is abusive to the knife and will accelerate wear. Sort of like using the parking brake on your car to stop the car. Also spine whacks on hard surfaces creates a lot of vibration that can cause the one moving part to want to move. The reality is this, would you ever accidentally strike the back of the blade with this much force in a real world situation?

After watching this, I took my Manix 2, and spine whacked it a few times. Against soft surfaces and against hard ones. I cover the wood with cloth so as not to mar the wood or the knife too much. The knife held, and it passed enough for me to not worry about it. I have had liner locks and other locks fail with this test.

The Triad Lock Cold Steel uses is pretty interesting. I am considering getting a knife with the lock to try it out. It eliminates one of the weaknesses of the back lock, in that it adds a stop pin that takes the forces placed upon the blade. As tests show, it is a pretty stout lock.
Very good points :) I'd especially like to hear about any failures in normal edc use.
dc

User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11695
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

Postby Blerv » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:46 pm

dc50 wrote:Very good points :) I'd especially like to hear about any failures in normal edc use.
Glad you asked.

Today I was opening an envelope with my Manix2 and it caught one of those little plastic stickers. You know, the "Initial [ Here ]" ones?

Before I could even stop pushing the blade snapped shut crunching my index finger like a malnourished walnut in one of those insane cracker dolls and went half-way through the other 3!

Half an hour later I woke up on the kitchen floor disoriented and nauseous on from losing 2 pints of blood. To make matters worse, the **** knife was sitting on the kitchen counter laughing at me and drinking one of my beers and hitting on my leatherman multi-tool!

I'm hoping Spyderco sees this. I'm expecting a new knife and a new index finger. :mad:
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 20651
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Postby Evil D » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:51 pm

**** that's funny.

The only thing this guy proved to me is that if you beat the crap out of a knife you can indeed break it.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Albatross, attila, camvdcs, crow2071, flasharry, Google [Bot], jdw, kirilpetkov, Majestic-12 [Bot], MSN [Bot], sal, ugaarguy, Wartstein and 35 guests