Manix 2 lock fails hard-use test [VID] -- thoughts?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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#301

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Ok Paul, I'm willing to stop if you guys are. But if you want to continue, this is a chance for me to practice my written English. :D
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#302

Post by SaturnNyne »

OMG, you guys are all totally wrong in saying that Stallone is manlier than Chuck Norris! Did you *see* how much chest hair Chuck had when he fought Bruce Lee? I hear Sylvester plucks his eyebrows to achieve that certain thin shape he prefers.

THG wrote:a knife that is said to be able to "self-destruct before the lock fails" ought to be able to handle spine whacking.
Just thought I'd point that out as a reminder of what this thread is about. The manufacturer has said this knife has a "hard-use rated lock," is made "using precise tolerances," that it's "one of the strongest knives from Spyderco to date" (which should mean pretty strong, right?), that the lock "withstands hard work" (with no mention of what does and does not constitute "work," but the implication is that it can handle what they expect the average nitwit to throw at it as long as he's not testing its ability to support his duallie), that it's "hella tuff," that the lock is so strong that the components would have to break apart before it failed, and that it looks good in "various types of. . .thongs." Someone did something that brought the truth of some of these claims into question (without making any assertions that a new truth had been demonstrated), so it'd be a good idea to look into what the truth actually is. This was then done, by the manufacturer. We should look at events like this and simply ask, "What? And why?" When we stray too far from that core, it's clearly "A recipe for folding knife bickering success."

Put concisely:
THG wrote:But let's look at the bigger picture here: 2 out of 3 knives survived that "non-real world" use. Why didn't the Manix 2? I think that ought to be investigated.
The Deacon wrote:There is and never will be any way of knowing if all the knives were subjected to the same forces. That's the bottom line difference between a destructive test and "hold my beer and watch this".
Is your point that Ankerson was lying to us when he told us this would be a scientific study done under controlled circumstances in a laboratory, and that absolute and broad-ranging conclusions could then be drawn from it? Because I agree with you, that wasn't true and he never should have said that. Good thing he didn't.

If your point is that Ankerson is a Joe Sixpack who has a problem with alcohol and risky behavior when in the presence of his peer group, I don't feel I yet have enough information to form an opinion and should probably watch the video again more closely.


Why are we attempting to divert this into an argument about how good youtube/watch-me-do-this-on-video tests are? I agree that most youtube tests are not very interesting and don't actually demonstrate anything worthwhile, and I think youtube testers tend to be rather incompetent, with the knife testers often standing out as one of the more knowledgeable groups in a sea of idiocy. However, whatever we think of these tests in general, or knife tests specifically, or abusive/destructive knife tests more specifically, it doesn't change the fact that what this guy did in a video, regardless of what it was, raised a question that should be answered. Spyderco agreed and looked into it, then they provided an answer of sorts. What more is there to say about how much we do or don't like youtube and to what degree these kids should get off your lawn?



Ankerson should have given us a video of his roadtrip to Golden, where he borrowed Spyderco's machine and ran the same tests they'd already done. Then at the end he could hold up what's left of the knife alongside an exact number, give a big smile and thumbs up, and continue on to give us a review of the cafe Sal recommended to him for lunch. There wouldn't have been much possibility of the M2 being improved by it, but we all would have been left much more blissful.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:This thread is just doing the fandango. Back and forth, back and forth. Because some poeple are concerned and some profess to be unconcerned. Both sides have their reasons and both won't budge. I do think everything has been said. We'll all be just repeating our positions ad infinitum.
Quite right. And fandango is a great word. It seems like many in this thread are in a state not wholly unlike a violent agreement. How many posters here have been carrying on an argument with no one about how this test doesn't necessarily reflect badly on the entire M2 line? I don't recall anyone saying the video did demonstrate that every M2 must be weak and dangerous. To argue repeatedly and at length against a position that wasn't even seriously put on the table until the manufacturer said they found something in the design to address... well, it smacks of insecurity and fear of looking for the truth, whatever it might be. So excuses and diversions replace learning. Some are concerned, some are unconcerned, some are curious about the truth behind what they saw; some think the manner of testing was good, some think it was bad, some think it doesn't really matter as long as it revealed something unexpected that should be understood properly before dismissing it. Bottom line: Spyderco didn't listen to the people who dismissed it as irrelevant, so they went ahead with an investigation of it, and as a result they announced that future versions will be made better. What are we upset about again? [Insert group hug smiley]

THG wrote:Make excuses, or strive for "constant quality improvement." One of them is the Spyderco spirit, the other isn't. Take your pick.
That's well put.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:As I said this thread is going nowhere maybe back and forth but nowhere else. Nobody's going to budge from their circled wagons now. Nor are they willing to stop arguing.
To be precise, this thread is going nowhere fast. The wagons have been circled since day one; it's just that now the mules have died and the wagons are being pushed.

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Ok Paul, I'm willing to stop if you guys are. But if you want to continue, this is a chance for me to practice my written English. :D
Your English is seriously already excellent, so I'm eager to see where it goes with more practice! :)



This thread is no longer doing any good, and, really, I only keep returning to it with genuine interest in my heart because I'm anxious to hear about the next great sandwich idea. I'm upset to find so many off topic posts cluttering up the sandwich discussion! ;)

unit wrote:My son got some strawberry butter at the local farmers market. I recommend that! Good stuff. I spread it with a spoon though. A knife is just overkill. LOL
araneae wrote:I was unaware that strawberry butter existed. I have a new holy grail in fruit preserves.
I'd never heard of that either! To be honest, I wasn't really very aware of even apple butter until I saw it in a store and had to try it; I hadn't considered the possibility that it might be done to fruits that can be made into jams as well, or what the difference between the two is. And I would spread it with a spoon too, for fear that a knife might impact the jar and snap the blade off. And then explode.

Franco G wrote:This is a point I was missing!

The venerable Manix2 with the strongest and most reliable lock is actually designed for cutting bread and puting a mango passion fruit jam on it!
I did not know this! Now where can I get some of this mango passion fruit stuff to try out? And am I correct in thinking that my SE model would be the very best for this, since the teeth would act as a sort of natural limiter on minimum height of the blade over the bread, regulating dispersal during very thin spreads and making it harder to scrape a section entirely dry?

Seven wrote:Put some of that passion fruit jam on a sammich with some almond butter, one exotic pb & J.
Man, seriously, the last couple days, between this thread and the what have you cut one, it seems like I come to this forum to read about knives and leave thinking about the delicious snacks I could make if only I had the right ingredients....

I'm gonna go try some apple butter on toasted english muffins now.
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#303

Post by RLR »

Image

Please?
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#304

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Darn, got me hungry too. :D
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#305

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Spanish sardines on soda crackers with a cup of brewed coffee. Anyone wanna join me?
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#306

Post by The Deacon »

C'mon, if I were to send one to him, and it passed - are you really naive enough to believe there isn't at least one person out there who would not suspect Sal had slipped me a specically "overbuilt" one? If I sent a Benchmade to him and it failed, would you not be the least bit suspicious that I'd monkeyed with it? Don't you think there are at least a couple people whose track record as disgruntled customers with agendas of their own would not make some suspect they'd tampered with any knife they sent for testing if it failed?

As for the other, no, I'm not suggesting alcohol was involved I don't think the Home Shopping Network guy who broke the kantana was drunk, but it was definitely what I'd call a "hold my beer and watch this" moment.
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#307

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Spanish sardines on soda crackers with a cup of brewed coffee. Anyone wanna join me?
And a couple of century eggs. Yes, the black ones on fear factor. :p

PS: The way to do that Paul, is to buy the manix 2 online and have it sent directly to Ankerson. Maybe ebay?
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#308

Post by sal »

Franco G wrote:Excellently said. Now, Sal should speak. Franco
Hi Franco,

Hope I didn't leave you pissed off too long. My travel schedule has been aggressive for the past few weeks and I was not able to take the time to respond. My apology.

Needless to say,this has been a controversial topic. What to "speak" becomes the question. Eric tried to engage (bladeforums) and he was attacked which made communication challenging.

I see that there are three major topics. I believe that the visitors to our forum are intelligent, civil and in some cases, highly knowledgeable, and should be able to discuss this issue and peel back the onion. I have a track record for honesty and transparency and will remain so.

1) purpose.

I receied this message from Mr. Ankerson back in early July:

“Sal,
There are just way too many misconceptions running around the forums about a lot of things and it gets very old.
A lot of it is not as you say Shiny Footprints, but more dog piling and parroting that gives newer people the wrong information.
So some of us try and weed through it and try to post more relevant information.
That is also one of the reasons I started making my videos, to try and cut through a lot of the junk that gets posted.
Jim”

I’d seen this approach over the years, even similar words, when a certain competitor was gettinbg ready to release new videos on their products. Videos created to convince the market of the “superiority” of their products. They were usually carefully created using specific tests designed to make their company look good, and sometimes others look bad.

No doubt that it probably worked with customers, but many in the industry consideed the videos to be more of a marketing strategy than a real test since it was so selective in its procedures.

Since I knew Mr. Ankerson to be a fan of that company, I must confess that I began to suspect that something was "brewing". I doubt that Mr. Ankerson sent similar notes to the presidents of all of the company's knives he's testing, but if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

I will add that that company does make good knives especially for their intended purpose.

2) Broken lock

The lock did in fact break with Mr. Ankerson's over-stike test. We've replicated the test and were able to damage the lock. We've been testing and analyzing breaks and parts for a while. Eric is very meticulous about his designs and engineering and we're working on the "why" as well as solutions.

3) Validity of the test(s).

Franco, I am carrying a Manix2 and I have absolutely no concerns. I don't think that you should either. If you are concerned, we would be pleased to replace your knife with any other of your choice.

This had been a distracting expeience for Eric and me. There we were minding our own business, trying to run a business and suddenly we're under fire.....even in our own camp.

I will be happy to discuss any of the details here. I will try to maintain Shiny footprints and I requerst that you do the same.

sal
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#309

Post by HotSoup »

Wow, Sal, thanks for the post. Its was long-anticipated.

Do you think you could speak on the validity (or lack of validity) in the spine-whack tests?
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#310

Post by kbuzbee »

Cheers to you, Sal. Always better to travel the higher road. If indeed this yields improvements to the line, I welcome them. But I have zero issues or concerns with any of the current product line. They are terrific. Please keep up the good work.

Ken
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#311

Post by flipe8 »

I know Sal, Eric&Spyderco know this, but you can't please everyone all the time. While I don't have a vested interest in this, I know it ticks me off when a few of the same malcontents always seem to be lurking just waiting to fire shots over your bow. It would be nice if they all used the same names on each forum they frequent.
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Post by sal »

HotSoup wrote:Wow, Sal, thanks for the post. Its was long-anticipated.

Do you think you could speak on the validity (or lack of validity) in the spine-whack tests?
Hi Hot Soup,

I created the spine wack test in the early 80's and introduced the test to the knife manufacturing industry. With a light tap on the tip of the spine of the folder, the lock seat can be tested. If the lock fails this test, there is a problem and the pieces needs to be inspected or scrapped. We always scrap lock defeats. naturally, one can apply enough force to break any knife, so a testing force is used, rather than a destructive force.

In this case, the spine wack test was never done with a normal knife. The lock was damaged in the over-strike test, which was done as the first impact test (at least on the Manix2). At that point, the lock was already broken and subsequent tests would be invalid. If the tester didn't know that he'd already broken the lock, then his tesing qualifations are suspect. If he did know that he's already broken the lock and continued the test, which had to fail, then this begs the question as to agenda.

If the lock is already broken and a spine wack test fails, one would know that on the first or even the 2nd whack. To continue re-resting the lock when you know it's broken is like killing an animal, and then kicking it to see if it's dead.....then kicking it again so see if it's still dead, then again and again and again???

sal
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#313

Post by rycen »

Sal

Do you see overstrikes a worthwhile to test locks? I find it hard to come up with a situation where that has happened to me using a folding knife.
We would rather be the knife in your pocket, because is "works" better, than the knife in your showcase, because it "looks" better.

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#314

Post by grg »

kbuzbee wrote:Cheers to you, Sal. Always better to travel the higher road. If indeed this yields improvements to the line, I welcome them. But I have zero issues or concerns with any of the current product line. They are terrific. Please keep up the good work.

Ken
I agree completely,I own seventeen manix 2's,and I trust all of them to perform the job I use them for, cutting,and slicing.Even the pink manix 2 s does the job without fail.
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#315

Post by Buffalohump »

Sal, I feel confident Spyderco will take this in their stride and continue to make excellent products in the future. However, I feel it is always good to get a little jolt every now and then. It keeps us all on our toes and prevents us from getting complacent. I own a Manix 2, the magnificent S90V sprint run version, and you can rest assured I will never spine whack it or do anything remotely silly like that.

That said I would like to know that IF I did ever have to put it through some extreme work, it would stand up to it. So if you can improve on the CBL and bring it up to spec in line with the very fine compression lock, for example, I think a lot of fans of the Manix 2 would be most pleased. I think in today's highly competitive environment, people do expect their folders to withstand a remarkable amount of abuse. Whether it makes sense or not for a folder to be treated in this way is an argument that will go round and round ad nauseam, but people do expect it....right or wrong.
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#316

Post by Franco G »

sal wrote:Hi Franco,

Hope I didn't leave you pissed off too long. My travel schedule has been aggressive for the past few weeks and I was not able to take the time to respond. My apology.

Needless to say,this has been a controversial topic. What to "speak" becomes the question. Eric tried to engage (bladeforums) and he was attacked which made communication challenging.

I see that there are three major topics. I believe that the visitors to our forum are intelligent, civil and in some cases, highly knowledgeable, and should be able to discuss this issue and peel back the onion. I have a track record for honesty and transparency and will remain so.

1) purpose.

I receied this message from Mr. Ankerson back in early July:

“Sal,
There are just way too many misconceptions running around the forums about a lot of things and it gets very old.
A lot of it is not as you say Shiny Footprints, but more dog piling and parroting that gives newer people the wrong information.
So some of us try and weed through it and try to post more relevant information.
That is also one of the reasons I started making my videos, to try and cut through a lot of the junk that gets posted.
Jim”

I’d seen this approach over the years, even similar words, when a certain competitor was gettinbg ready to release new videos on their products. Videos created to convince the market of the “superiority” of their products. They were usually carefully created using specific tests designed to make their company look good, and sometimes others look bad.

No doubt that it probably worked with customers, but many in the industry consideed the videos to be more of a marketing strategy than a real test since it was so selective in its procedures.

Since I knew Mr. Ankerson to be a fan of that company, I must confess that I began to suspect that something was "brewing". I doubt that Mr. Ankerson sent similar notes to the presidents of all of the company's knives he's testing, but if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.

I will add that that company does make good knives especially for their intended purpose.

2) Broken lock

The lock did in fact break with Mr. Ankerson's over-stike test. We've replicated the test and were able to damage the lock. We've been testing and analyzing breaks and parts for a while. Eric is very meticulous about his designs and engineering and we're working on the "why" as well as solutions.

3) Validity of the test(s).

Franco, I am carrying a Manix2 and I have absolutely no concerns. I don't think that you should either. If you are concerned, we would be pleased to replace your knife with any other of your choice.

This had been a distracting expeience for Eric and me. There we were minding our own business, trying to run a business and suddenly we're under fire.....even in our own camp.

I will be happy to discuss any of the details here. I will try to maintain Shiny footprints and I requerst that you do the same.

sal
Sal,

Thank you very much for your very kind answer.

First, I want to apologize if you feel offended with my comments - truly, no offense was intended - that was a consequence of my mediterranean temperament.

I was really very much disappointed with the fact that the knife I trusted so much suddenly gets broken! I got Manix2 (154CM) last November in Vienna (Elvira Lorenzi shop, a lot of discussion as usual, they appreciate and like Spyderco very much).

My main concern was and is: could Manix2 be trusted as a MBC knife? Not that I plan to engage in SD situation, but MBC is a sort of the standard - once it is MBC rated lock one should trust that knife for any task which could appear in extreme situation (eartquakes, fire, survival in woods, forests, sea, etc.).

I understood from your post Manix2 is still a knife with a MBC lock and I trust you.

Thank you very much for your kind offer to replace my knife with any other of my choice. My choice would be again Manix2, sorry.

However, as far as an improvement Eric talked (probably nylon part for screws?) are concerned I would be glad to bring my Manix2 to the standard of future one. Would it be possible?

Concerning a possibility of overstrikes appearing in a real world during a MBC activity - there is some controversy between what Mike Janich said (answer NO) and Steve Ryan (STR) - you may help there. I'll try to explain that in another post.


Franco
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#317

Post by Blerv »

You don't have to go very far into the history books to figure out where "MBC" or "Martial Blade Concepts" came from. Ironic enough the guy who coined the phrase is currently working for Spyderco and is a highly respected martial artist.

http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/

In fact, not to speak for Mr. Janich, but he has praised the Delica and Endura in the past which do not meet the "MBC" lock rating yet are FULLY capable of being defense tools.

This makes sense since the Delica/Endura trainers are sold probably 9/1 to every other trainer from Spyderco. Of the people I have known none have ever seen one close under heavy sparring and trapping drills.
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#318

Post by sal »

rycen wrote:Sal

Do you see overstrikes a worthwhile to test locks? I find it hard to come up with a situation where that has happened to me using a folding knife.
Hey Rycen,

I guess you go straight for the heart ;)

As you might guess, Eric, Tom (mfg mgr), Doug (engineer) and I have spent many hours discussing this question. We've broken a lot of knives and examined a lot of parts under scopes. Let me break up your question. We decided that it IS a "test", and probably one that, like all tests must have some merit somewhere.

It is not a test that we have used or for which we have engineered as we've not encountered the question. Now that we have studied the situation, we decided that we will make the necessary changes to the design to withstand that type of abuse. We have come up with 4 somewhat small changes that we feel will provide the protection needed. We won't know for a couple of days the results of those mods.

As to validity, there seems to be much controversy. When I take a 3" knife and hold it by the back of the handle, I feel somewhat silly to be trying to chop with such a small knife, but we did that test anyway.

We chopped with the Manix2 and trimming branches and cutting notches was no problem. It was far easier (at least for me) to hold the knife properly and whittle the branches and wood away. Then it becomes impossible to "miss" the target. This also makes over-strikes impossible as my fingers were in the way and the bottom of the handle could not be impacted on the wood..

SSSssssooooo, if you are chopping with this 3" knife in this manner and you happen to miss your target a few times and you happen to strike the bottom of the handle in just the right place, it will more than likely damage the knife.

We broke a lot of knives this way by intentionally missing the target and "over-striking" on the wood. It is a very destructive test. Given enough force, I would guess that I could break just about any folding knife this way. The amount of force used would be a serious variable to control.

I hope that answers your question.

I will try to accomodate all questions and share my thoughts. Since I also have a "day job", my responses will be somewhat sporadic.

sal
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#319

Post by KaliGman »

Blerv wrote:You don't have to go very far into the history books to figure out where "MBC" or "Martial Blade Concepts" came from. Ironic enough the guy who coined the phrase is currently working for Spyderco and is a highly respected martial artist.

http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/

In fact, not to speak for Mr. Janich, but he has praised the Delica and Endura in the past which do not meet the "MBC" lock rating yet are FULLY capable of being defense tools.

This makes sense since the Delica/Endura trainers are sold probably 9/1 to every other trainer from Spyderco. Of the people I have known none have ever seen one close under heavy sparring and trapping drills.
Oh, you should see some of the Delica 3 and Endura 3 trainers I have. In sparring and training (and yes, we spar with the trainers), I have never seen a blade or lock broken. We have torn off clips, lost screws from clips that loosened up, had trainers fly through the air and smack walls and other hard objects during full-speed disarms during sparring, but never broken a blade or lock.
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#320

Post by Blerv »

KaliGman wrote:Oh, you should see some of the Delica 3 and Endura 3 trainers I have. In sparring and training (and yes, we spar with the trainers), I have never seen a blade or lock broken. We have torn off clips, lost screws from clips that loosened up, had trainers fly through the air and smack walls and other hard objects during full-speed disarms during sparring, but never broken a blade or lock.
That works for me! Thanks KaliGman :)
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