What makes a good SD knife

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8799
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

#41

Post by Dr. Snubnose »

kawr wrote:
Dr. Snubnose wrote:
Mr. Janich seemed like he was asking for some specific examples on what your self defense tactics/idealogy were but you never provide any real insight or advice. Not trying to discredit you but seems like you're just blowing steam when you give really vague answers that even an average joe can state. Frankly it seems like you got offended by the honest questions and disputes given by Mr. Janich.
Kawr: Once again and I'm only gonna say this once, what does my self-defense tactics/idealogy have to do with the OP request for information in his original posts. I think you are way off base by saying I'm just blowing steam, and do tell please (enlighten me) what vague answers I gave that the average Joe can state that you seem to be unhappy about. As far as me being offended by Michael's questions and disputes,...not an issue for me, and frankly you don't know me well enough to make such a statement, I know for a fact Michael was not trying to offend me, and openly accepts a difference of opinion from others all the time. I just don't understand what his last statements has to do with the OP's thread...that is all.....No offense taken FWIW with yours or Michael's comments....Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*
User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8799
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

#42

Post by Dr. Snubnose »

kawr wrote:
Dr. Snubnose wrote:
Mr. Janich seemed like he was asking for some specific examples on what your self defense tactics/idealogy were but you never provide any real insight or advice. Not trying to discredit you but seems like you're just blowing steam when you give really vague answers that even an average joe can state. Frankly it seems like you got offended by the honest questions and disputes given by Mr. Janich.
Kawr: Once again and I'm only gonna say this once, what does my self-defense tactics/idealogy have to do with the OP request for information in his original posts. I think you are way off base by saying I'm just blowning steam, and do tell pease (enlighten me) what vague answers I gave that the average Jow can state thatyou seem to be unhappy about. As far as me being offended by Michael's questions and disputes,...not an issue for me, and frankly you don't know me well enough to make such a statement, I know for a fact Michael was not trying to offend me, and openly accepts a difference of opinion from others all the time. I just don't understand what his last statements has to do with the OP thread...that is all.....No offense taken FWIW with yours or Michael's comments....Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*
User avatar
psychophipps
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:19 am
Location: Texas, in the RGV

#43

Post by psychophipps »

I think that I can say what I look for, and there is a pretty strong possibility that sooner rather than later the person I'm talking to will find find something they like better. Add that my EDC folder is a Benchmade Griptilian 550HG and I didn't want to be tossing out the reasons I like a competitor vs. the rough Spyderco equivalent knife out of respect. Not trying to be all "mysterious" and holier-than-thou, I just know that telling someone with different tastes, body size, training background, and demeanor why I find knife "X" to be superfly is doing them a disservice if they just take my word for it on a purchase when they can simply go to a store and find something that they like.

Knife selection is a very personal thing, after all... :o
User avatar
ssmtbracer
Member
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:02 pm
Location: USA

#44

Post by ssmtbracer »

I can legally carry a rock salt and I think I just might start.
Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 2981
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

#45

Post by Michael Janich »

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to this thread. It seems that we all pretty much agree on the basic requirements for a personal defense knife:

Legal to carry in your jurisdiction
Strength
Cutting and puncturing ability
Ergonomics that support combative use
Ease of carry
Quick, positive deployment

Those are the basics and will work with most systems of knife use. If your tactics require other specific attributes, the reasoning behind those tactics and the effect they have on your knife selection should be carefully scrutinized to make sure your approach remains logical. Recommendations that can't be supported by reasoning that is logical and both tactically and medically sound should be considered with great skepticism.

Above all, proper training and regular practice are key. Good training should address both how AND why specific tactics are used. That knowledge should then be used to further validate and refine your choice of tool so skill and tool always selection go hand in hand.

Stay safe,

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts
User avatar
Blue72
Member
Posts: 717
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:39 am

#46

Post by Blue72 »

kawr wrote:
Mr. Janich seemed like he was asking for some specific examples on what your self defense tactics/idealogy were but you never provide any real insight or advice. Not trying to discredit you but seems like you're just blowing steam when you give really vague answers that even an average joe can state. Frankly it seems like you got offended by the honest questions and disputes given by Mr. Janich.
Actually I think Doc was just being humble. Often when a discussion of self defense tactics or ideology comes up on the forums it turns into a 50 page pissing match. Which I think the doc was trying to avoid, especially on a spyderco forum that promotes "shiny footsteps"

If you are really curious about his background just click on his name and read his Bio

Even though I do not go to his school, I do live in the area and know he has a decent reputation
User avatar
chuck_roxas45
Member
Posts: 8776
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Small City, Philippines

#47

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Gentlemen, we are all fans of, and at the same time passionate defenders of our various styles of SD. We cannot help but be passionate and in fact, to be effective, we need to be passionate about our methods. In this context, it is to be expected that there will be differences of opinion. However, especially in people of such stature as Doc and Mike, these differences do not mean that there is any offense given or taken. These differences might instead inspire more ideas from both parties. Having said this, we should thank all the people who share their expertise and experience with the rest of us so that we can learn from them what we otherwise cannot, in our own horizons.
User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11833
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

#48

Post by Blerv »

The thread was innocent enough asking for features in a good SD knife. Redundant topic but it was a tool-oriented focus.

This often leads into the topic of other defense tools, philosophy, and training methodology. Usually this off-topic banter is entertaining and with people like Michael Janich, Doc, KaliGMan (can't recall if he commented), and SouthNarc it makes for extremely interesting/useful information. A rare thing in the forum world.

As for the critique of not offering specific advice via forum as to training methods and technique to the untrained I will be quite honest: it's impossible.

Besides philosophy it's very difficult to train or gleam knowledge from anything but tangible training. Even with all the eloquence in the world the best authors, with pictures, can hardly do it (especially to an un-trained audience). Video clips are *better* but far from ideal as many people in this forum, who teach, can probably agree with.

I'm not saying professionals can't get use out of reference material may it be book, video, or a combination. However, if you don't have a significant amount of training it's hard to see how fatally flawed your own technique is compared to the master you are observing. It's easier to see you are punching WRONG than trying to explain to someone how to throw a proper punch from square one...let alone something as obscure as knife fighting which shares very little with most hand-to-hand combative systems. It's more complicated that teaching someone how to ride a bike.

In the end I feel you have to go off reputation and credentials. Getting paid for teaching defense (everyone I listed above) is a **** good start! Having a reputation with esteemed members of society like police officers or military is another good step (everyone I listed above). If possible seeing how people move definitely helps. That said, I HIGHLY doubt anyone listed above would say the best defense from a knife attack is a Tae Kwon Do middle-block. ;)

Seriously though. If you want information look up peoples bios. Google their instructors names. Listen to the people you know who pay respect to them (or perhaps don't). Google their instructors and reference material. Check to see if they have a business license. Many of them have videos. The fact that they are actually TEACHING something shows that they are getting off the sofa.

If you want to attack the methodology of anyone in my humble opinion you better have a professional stance as well. Most people with this position rarely do however...because it's bad business for everyone. :D

The internet martial arts world from my outside perspective is stained by the blood of feuds and arguments. Sadly the words live on for almost an eternity.
User avatar
psychophipps
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:19 am
Location: Texas, in the RGV

#49

Post by psychophipps »

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Gentlemen, we are all fans of, and at the same time passionate defenders of our various styles of SD. We cannot help but be passionate and in fact, to be effective, we need to be passionate about our methods. In this context, it is to be expected that there will be differences of opinion. However, especially in people of such stature as Doc and Mike, these differences do not mean that there is any offense given or taken. These differences might instead inspire more ideas from both parties. Having said this, we should thank all the people who share their expertise and experience with the rest of us so that we can learn from them what we otherwise cannot, in our own horizons.
Agreed. I appreciate any input, especially those that I don't initially agree with and make me think of alternatives to my own limited experiences and methods. The fact that such experts chose to share their thoughts and experiences with us on this board is truly a blessing. :)
User avatar
chuck_roxas45
Member
Posts: 8776
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Small City, Philippines

#50

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

As one who seeks to learn from all possible sources, I do sincerely hope that these experts in their field will continue to share their hard-earned knowledge and wisdom with the rest of us.
kawr
Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 1:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL

#51

Post by kawr »

dd61999 wrote:Actually I think Doc was just being humble. Often when a discussion of self defense tactics or ideology comes up on the forums it turns into a 50 page pissing match. Which I think the doc was trying to avoid, especially on a spyderco forum that promotes "shiny footsteps"

If you are really curious about his background just click on his name and read his Bio

Even though I do not go to his school, I do live in the area and know he has a decent reputation
I think you're confused. It turns into a pissing match when someone gets defensive and hostile when asked to explain and provide actual evidence to prove their statements. If anything it comes off as arrogance if you say something and expect people to believe it with zero proof.

What Doc said that makes him come off like an arrogant douchebag:
"Not wanting to hijack this thread, but I don't see what your curiosity, has to do with this thread. I will say I have no books to sell, no DVD's for you to buy and I don't post my tactics on You tube, (for my own reasons), but I will say that my opinions tactics and techniques are based on my own real world experiences, and I have faced potential danger on more than one occasion and I am still here to type those words, so whatever I did do seemed to work.This is probably the reason why I carry the Rock Salt on my side as opposed to a Delica in my pocket."

Responses like this lead to pissing matches.
User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8799
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

#52

Post by Dr. Snubnose »

Thanks Kawr, I always wanted to be called an arrogant douchebag....To use your words "Responses like this lead to pissing matches" We are required to leave shiny footprints here on the spyderco forum...seems to me you just stepped in ****....Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*
User avatar
chuck_roxas45
Member
Posts: 8776
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:43 pm
Location: Small City, Philippines

#53

Post by chuck_roxas45 »

Hey Kawr, seems to me you're the one trying to start a pissing match.
User avatar
psychophipps
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:19 am
Location: Texas, in the RGV

#54

Post by psychophipps »

Perhaps both of you could drop it now, please? :)
User avatar
Dr. Snubnose
Member
Posts: 8799
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm
Location: NewYork

#55

Post by Dr. Snubnose »

psychophipps wrote:Perhaps both of you could drop it now, please? :)
I'd like that. Doc :D
"Always Judge a man by the way he treats someone who could be of no possible use to him"

*Custom Avatar with the Help of Daywalker*
User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11833
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

#56

Post by Blerv »

Let's just stick to the tool. Nobody is trying to sell training materials.

Anyone who has ever trained knows what a sophisticated approach blade work is. It's not a bunch of x-blocks and side kicks. Thus you aren't going to read the same mantra nor are going to be invincible after a few Youtube clips.

One might as well ask for a step-by-step approach to heart surgery 101.
Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 2981
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

#57

Post by Michael Janich »

First of all, let's keep it civil, please. We can disagree, but flaming each other is a no go on this forum. Thanks.

Discussing the desirable attributes of a self-defense knife--or any knife--is good. In general terms, reasonable folks will all end up with similar results. However, there comes a point where some people's method of use influences or even dictates the attributes of their preferred tools. For example, if a person's tactics and training emphasize cutting on extension and retraction without any wrist articulation, a double edge becomes a "required" attribute of a defensive knife. That also paints them into a corner when it comes to personal-defense weapon selection and tactics in areas where double-edged blades are not allowed. If they had adapted their training and tactics to work effectively with small, single-edged, legal-anywhere folders, the details of that adaptation would be fodder for an interesting discussion.

Quantifying and understanding someone's approach to defensive tactics is a great window into their thoughts on weapon selection--especially when someone is adamant about a particular feature or characteristic. Understanding how they adapt their tactics when they are forced to work with a less-than-optimal tool can also be very educational and a great insight into adapting traditional combat arts to modern self-defense applications and laws.

That's the process I've always taken with MBC and that's what guides my interest in quantifying other people's choices and opinions. It's often fodder for some fascinating discussions. Sometimes it's not.

Let's all take a deep breath and play nice.

Stay safe,

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts
User avatar
psychophipps
Member
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:19 am
Location: Texas, in the RGV

#58

Post by psychophipps »

One attribute I look for is a tip that doesn't pass the 50/50 mark edge to spine. Since I use an inverted-edge method, I like to have good power on my pull cuts and back-cut strokes and this blade shape seems to best give me this attribute without going for a Wharncliffe. A decently belly for good bite when I thrust under a limb and pull cut is a bonus, but not a requirement.

I have a large-size palm and XL-length fingers so I like a slightly convex handle shape with a width of at least 5/8" or so. I'm not too worried about a choil or a finger guard despite my largely point-driven method as I largely go for soft targets. A solid, convulsive hammer grip combined with a good scale material will keep your knife planted just fine regardless.

I also look for a good one-handed opening method. Since we're talking Spyderco here, that's pretty much guaranteed and my EDC Benchmade Griptilian 550HG has a licensed SyderHole (which was a major selling point for me, btw.). I prefer the hole to the thumb stud that Mr. Janich prefers as I have very shallow print ridges (made my fingerprinting for my CHP a real dream, I've got to tell you) and have trouble getting good purchase on studs sometimes. The hole means I'll need my thumb tip to suddenly shear off during presentation before it won't grip so that's what I prefer.
User avatar
JNewell
Member
Posts: 5060
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Land of the Bean and the Cod

#59

Post by JNewell »

chuck_roxas45 wrote:As one who seeks to learn from all possible sources, I do sincerely hope that these experts in their field will continue to share their hard-earned knowledge and wisdom with the rest of us.
Agreed. The puzzling thing is that these discussions do not always wind up as an open discussion, with reasons given and illustrated. :(
User avatar
markg
Member
Posts: 2152
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Ohio

#60

Post by markg »

It has been my experience that politics, religion and martial arts/combatives are difficult to discuss, especially on the Internet. Why? They are topics rooted in theory and passion. They are things we devote our lives too, yet are often based in theory... That fuels debate, and add the passion side... The wheels often come off the discussion. Heck, I have seen people get all bent out of shape when discussion the same martial art!!!

I have learned a lot in the martial world by keeping my mouth shut. I politely listen, observe, compare and see what works for me, and my context. Any reasonably good instructor will give you at least one/two/ or maybe three items you put in your bag of tricks. 25% of what they teach you might just not buy into. Never "drink the Kool-Aid" with these things.

Where most people miss the boat, is that they believe any martial art/system must be 100% effective in 100% of the situations to be credible. This is unrealistic. Study, train, listen, compare... You have your own context, and you bring a certain set of skills (or lack therein) to the game. You have physical realities to deal with. Got a bad knee? Are you 65 years old? How flexible are you? These all play into what you do.

As noted, the knife you carry has to fit your context, your training, the legal realities you have to face. How much money you can reasonably devote to the project. And in the end, the theory you believe in.

And always judge your theory on the reality, that one or two experiences do not give you enough data to say your theory is based in fact. If a person has been in one "knife encounter" they have a good idea of the physiology that goes on, but they have not experience everything that could or will happen in a knife fight/encounter. It is their experience, but it is not all experience.

So what is the best self-defense knife?

One that stays locked open

One that is pointy and cuts

One that fits the hand securely in chosen knife grip

One that deploys well (pocket and opening)

One that keeps you safe, and legal

The fun part is you get to play with them and find out which one works for you. :)
Post Reply