Questions for Michael Janich...

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Michael Janich
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Postby Michael Janich » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:24 pm

First of all, a HUGE thanks to my friend SouthNarc for taking the time and effort to personally explain the logic and reasoning behind his methods. As I mentioned before, I have great respect for him as a practitioner and a trainer. Thanks, brother, for sharing your thoughts.

To answer Defenestrate:

1. I agree that trapping is a valid tactic in knife work, however, in my opinion it needs to lead to something decisive, like cutting or puncturing something important. The ultimate trapping serrations--the saw-like ones used on the Al Mar Warrior and custom versions of that same design--do an awesome job of trapping to get limbs out of the way and position an attacker for a follow-up shot. Any advantage offered by serrations as trapping devices is, in my opinion, minimal.

2. Your comments on the natural point orienation of well-designed hawkbills are spot on. As I stated in my original comment, "As long as the hawkbill isn't so radically curved that the utility of the point is lost, it's a viable option." When it is too radically curved, the point is useless. One example of this was the Spyderco Karambit. It cut with a vengeance, but only on specific lines. As a thrusting tool, it had extremely limited function.

The Garra II design I did for BlackHawk followed the same logic of using a natural wrist angle to achieve instinctive point orientation. Its predecessors, the MOD Caracara and Garra, were curved too much. I un-screwed that with the Garra II.

I hope this helps. Thanks again to SouthNarc for his contributions. I'm currently here at the Blade Show and hope to see him in person during the coming days...

Stay safe,

Mike
Michael Janich
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Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

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Postby SouthNarc » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:59 am

I wish I could be there Mike but AGAIN I have a conflict this weekend with a class. I guess the only time I can actually lock in for seing you is New Hampshire next year at the conference. They did reach out to you for that didn't they? It's a good time and good people.

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Postby Michael Janich » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:15 am

SouthNarc wrote:I wish I could be there Mike but AGAIN I have a conflict this weekend with a class. I guess the only time I can actually lock in for seing you is New Hampshire next year at the conference. They did reach out to you for that didn't they? It's a good time and good people.
It sucks that you can't be here at Blade, but you're definitely here in spirit.

Yes, the New Hampshire crew reached out and I'm locked in for next year. I'll look forward to catching up then, if not sooner.

Keep up the great work and take care!

Stay safe,

Mike
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Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
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defenestrate
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Postby defenestrate » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:58 pm

Thanks for the reply, Mike. I kind of get the impression that you see serrations as primarily a utilitarian thing and almost not at all a useful for SD thing. Is this an accurate assessment? I will certainly keep that in mind when considering which blades I am using for SD (and plan to do some more testing). I definitely like a serrated blade for many purposes but I would always rather use the right tool for the job, whatever that job may be.
I drink, and I cut things.
-er, me, by way of Tyrion Lannister

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Postby Michael Janich » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:32 am

defenestrate wrote:Thanks for the reply, Mike. I kind of get the impression that you see serrations as primarily a utilitarian thing and almost not at all a useful for SD thing. Is this an accurate assessment? I will certainly keep that in mind when considering which blades I am using for SD (and plan to do some more testing). I definitely like a serrated blade for many purposes but I would always rather use the right tool for the job, whatever that job may be.
Yes, that's a pretty accurate assessment.

Stay safe,

Mike
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Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

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psychophipps
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Postby psychophipps » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:15 am

Hey Mike, there is this wonderous invention called "sleep". You remember it, I'm sure. Try to get some for old times sake! ;)

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Postby SouthNarc » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:02 am

Just to reiterate my points about commitment, decisiveness and violence of action watch this video. Not knife stuff but a great perpective on mindset. Think about WHY Lance Thomas was so succesful. There's nothing defensive about his tactics at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w

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Postby Jbgecko13 » Fri May 27, 2011 9:32 am

Hey there I know this a long time dead thread but I wanted to first say thanks to both super trainers for the great comment's and second I want to give props to the Spyderco P'kal knife.

This knife's ergonomic design and less dramatic hawkbill curve make this knife fit very well in the hand. While I don't have any official training I have been learning at home (on the Mat) with the trainer versions of a few different fighting style knives and I have found that the P'kal lends the best overall to both forms of fighting Technics. This knife is intended for the the reverse grip but if you turn it over in your hand it then has a giant spot for you to rest your thumb!!! I am left handed so everything for me is backwards I guess. With the majority of people in the world being right handed I find myself coming up with ways to defend differently since most of the mechanics are in the reverse for my dominant hand.

This knife is a tool first for me also and is not that threatening as a folder since it is not overly huge and looks different than most knives.

Great Job Spyderco, I hope you keep producing this knife for long time as many people deserve to own it.

James

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Postby BAL » Fri Jun 03, 2011 5:27 am

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Both gentlemen are not just fine martial artists but excellent writers as well, and it's an honor to be a member of the same forum as these guys.
Ditto

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Postby Greg Walker » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:04 pm

Just saw this thread.

First, while editor of Fighting Knives Magazine I truly enjoyed the opportunity to have Mike Janich share his then early work in FK. My two favorite articles from MJ are "Cutting Dynamics - When Flesh Meets Steel", FK / July 1995 and "Throwing for Combat - A Practical Approach", FK / January 1996.

In regard to this thread's discussion Mike offered in the first article noted that once mastered the dynamics for cutting "will make the difference between simply cutting your opponent, and cutting him with telling effect." In the second article regarding knife throwing for combat Mike again points out but in a different realm "...we are interested in how to deliver the knife in the shortest amount of time, with the most amount of damage, in such a way the opponent cannot avoid being struck."

One of the most quiet yet effective CQB / knife instructors I've met and trained with is John Holshen. John was a qualified operator with the 1st Special Forces Group back in the day (actually my day, too, when I think about it :) ). John taught then and I imagine may still now that CQB bladework was always the worst case scenario and always occurred in very close range / tight quarters. Covering/protecting and cutting effectively under extreme duress was of paramount importance, period.

Instructor credability such as John's, SouthNarc and MJ's is likewise paramount. The late Bob Kasper, the founder of Gung Ho Chuan, writing in FK in our July 1995 issue, offered this thought on the subject. "I was about to start a a combat knife course for a Special Operations unit when their chief instructor said to me, "These guys have been there and know what they are doing. If they don't like what they see, they'll get up and leave." With that type of audience, any instructor had better be able to walk the talk."

Former SEAL Team Six operator Pat Tray, writing in the January issue of FK (1996), wrote that Intestinal Fortitude "is the hardest attribute to develop in any form of fighting, but particulary where bladework is concerned. Intestinal fortitude is 90% mental and only 10% physical. Once learned it is very hard to erase, unlike the physical attribute of stretching/flexibility. It does not go away with time or lack of application. Once imprinted it resides deep within you, always ready to be brought forth upon command or demand."

My first experience in law enforcement was working as an undercover narcotics officer way back in the 1970s in the State of Alaska. A knife was then (and there at the time) a most normal item to carry and as such raised little to no interest when doing UC work. EVERYONE carried or had a folder or fixed blade with them or nearby. My first purely defensive folder was a Gerber FS II as championed by Soldier of Fortune knife editor David Steele (remember Dave - the first guru on blade CQB in the magazine forum and the guy who broke this field wide open for the rest of us, IMHO). I have never forgot what Dave wrote in the September 1977 issue of SOF in "Steele On Knives" - "Your knife fighting technique does not have to be terrific if your blade is out and in before your opponent knows what is happening."

I agree en toto with SouthNarc - you have to be fast, committed, capable of immediate but controlled "violence of action" (incidently the title of the Rogue Warrior novel I co-wrote with Dick Marcinko before shipping out to Kuwait/Iraq in '02) and understanding of the fact that unlike the battlefield the courtroom will simply see the use of a knife as a dangerous or deadly weapon and you'd best be well versed in how to explain and convince a judge or jury why you had to wound, maim or kill the other guy or gal under the color of law.
GW

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ginsuwarrior
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Postby ginsuwarrior » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:50 pm

Interesting insight. Thank you for your service, and thoughts Mr. Walker.
Military // PM 2 // Endura // Delica // Stretch // SE Tasman // SE Hawkbill Ladybug

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Postby Greg Walker » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:34 pm

In general I agree with MJ regarding an aggressive serration feature.

If a blade features a partial serration this aspect of the blade leans heavily toward a utilitarian assist.

However, a full serration such as the Spyderco Civilian - one of my favored offensive carry folding knives since it became available - offers an exceptionally aggressive CQB platform bladewise.

Targeting is likewise a prime intellectual and training priority. Again, a knife like the Civilian should be targeted against the back of the neck, full face and throat, and the wrists/fingers/palm and back of hands. Seriously impair or destroy an opponent's ability to grasp a weapon or provide adequate empty hand defense/offense...destroy his vision...remove the heart's ability to successfully pump oxygen rich blood under immense pressure (blood pressure raised during confrontation) to the brain by slashing/tearing the sides and front of the throat...and all of this in less than 3-5 seconds (the element of surprise) brings a confrontation to an end.

Adapt a full serration to a Spyderco knife such as the Rescue model - misleading both in appearance and design intent/marketing - and you have inserted the art of deception regarding the weapon itself.

For a smaller folder such as the Delica, which HRD master Erik Remmen was among the very first to rely upon when developing his ground fighting / unique CQB program (Erik used to get Delicas from Sal which he had the edges ground down on and the point rounded - the first use of a training knife by a modern knife instructor that I am aware of), the full serration amps up the potential capability of the smaller package for defensive/offensive application.

Just my thoughts.
GW

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Postby ManixFan » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:05 pm

That last post was impressive and instructive......it's nice that you are still around to pass the knowledge on. Just my opinion.
Estne Spyderco in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre? :eek:
Google est amicus! :D

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Postby Jax » Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:39 am

Very interesting thread,makes a great read.
I could see some knife blades snapping in half during the heat of the battle,with limbs flailing,and adrenaline kicking in.
Or perhaps getting caught up in clothing or flesh,then torqued.
Not sure i would want a delica or a civilian,or any 59hrc VG-10 blade for such a roll.
But if that's what I had,I think I would take the blade out and throw it in the oven at 500f and re temper it.
Or maybe put the edge in water or oil,and hit the spine with a torch till it turned blue,or at the least purple.
I think I would also modify a delica's tip just a tad without
screwing up it's strength.
And lastly I would give it a 20 degree edge,sharpened to 400grit,then 10 passes a side with a fine ceramic,for a razor tooth.
Of all Spyderco's folders,I think I would choose the Szabo as my choice for a SD knife.
But if I was attacked lately,and things were dire enough to warrant deploying it,then i would be left to my Military which is my Edc.
My feelings are to wield it ice pick style edge out in my right hand,with a boxer like stance and movements,but it also feels good left or right in the normal grip.

I enjoy watching MJ manipulating knives at the Spyderco booth in videos,and I am always left with a sense of professionalism when hearing him speak about Anything.
I hold him and Sal in high esteem.

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Postby Greg Walker » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:17 am

Murhpy's Law - "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong".

Barger's Law (Sonny Barger - founder of the Oakland Hells Angels) - "When in doubt, knock 'em out!"

Combat Quotes -

“I find it rude to laugh at a man with a sword.”
― Derek Landy, Mortal Coil

“Pain was their body's way of telling them that they'd pushed themselves to their limits -- which was exactly where they were supposed to be.”
― Richard Marcinko, Rogue Warrior

“Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“Athen’s father taught him to never bare your weapon unless you planned on using it. Drawing steel prematurely negated any chance of avoiding conflict. Master Kallen, one of Athen’s gruff sword trainers, held a similar belief, though embellished with the poetic grace of a retired soldier. Drawing your sword during the verbal parrying preceding combat was tantamount to telling your opponent to go **** his mother. At that point the time for talking your way out of the situation stands as much chance of surviving as a snowflake shoved up a fire drake's ***.”
― Artemas Khan, Wolves Fear to Prey

And my favorite this morning -

“Bullets do not discriminate. They are equal-opportunity projectiles.”
― Peter Duysings, Turbulent Waters

In the real world someone with the Means, Opportunity and Intent can beat you to death with a tightly rolled up magazine (Knives Illustrated, perhaps? :eek :)

Or in prison with a sharpened bit of bed frame with handle made from the cotton stripping of a t-shirt and the element of surprise ("Shanking").

I always enjoy visiting with Datu Kelly Worden (Natural Spirit International). You never see Kelly manipulate the blade. It's just "there" and you're appropriately educated :)
GW

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Postby twinboysdad » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:26 am

I am embarrassed to chime in here considering the level of expertise that has weighed in, but last week I was at my kids' BJJ training and they have rolls of athletic tape lying around. I ripped some off and test cut it with my Ladybug Hawkbill SE H1 and with my Caly 3.5. No question the Caly cut better. The LBHB sort of got hung up and I had to work to get a clean cut. It is funny because if had to cut something like athletic tape in a jam I would have grabbed the SE first. Probably nothing to deduce from this other than me being surprised and athletic tape as a medium cuts better with a PE. By the way no other parents were around so I did not set off any weirdo-meters during my cutting!!

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Postby Greg Walker » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:59 pm

twinboysdad wrote:I am embarrassed to chime in here considering the level of expertise that has weighed in, but last week I was at my kids' BJJ training and they have rolls of athletic tape lying around. I ripped some off and test cut it with my Ladybug Hawkbill SE H1 and with my Caly 3.5. No question the Caly cut better. The LBHB sort of got hung up and I had to work to get a clean cut. It is funny because if had to cut something like athletic tape in a jam I would have grabbed the SE first. Probably nothing to deduce from this other than me being surprised and athletic tape as a medium cuts better with a PE. By the way no other parents were around so I did not set off any weirdo-meters during my cutting!!
Take piece of meat - hang it somewhere safe and at shoulder level - make #1 and #2 slash (Kali) with PE, forward grip. Then with serrated edge, forward grip. Measure length, width and depth of cut.

Take 2nd piece of meat - do same - do same but with reverse grip - measure same -

Be careful, of course.

Then tell us what you discovered.
GW

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Postby ManixFan » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:08 pm

Oh please just spoon feed us the answer :rolleyes:

I do have a nice thick marinated ribeye that I was going to throw on the BBQ today but I'd really prefer to be throwing it on and cooking it intact rather than in pieces. ;)

I know, I know, learning is best done through experience......but in this case, I'd rather rely on yours rather than ruin my nice steak. :o
Estne Spyderco in toga, an solum tibi libet me videre? :eek:
Google est amicus! :D

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Postby Greg Walker » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:50 pm

Whether PE or serrated -

Meat/flesh/skin/muscle/tendon -

Ain't wrapping tape.

Paul Vunak was doing this demo years ago = still valid today - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBP8o7nntnw
GW

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Postby JB3 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:43 pm

I would just like to thank Michael Janich, SouthNark, Greg Walker, the OP, and everyone for posting this very important and critical information. Your time and effort in sharing you experience is greatly appreciated.

JB3


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