S30V vs. ZDP 189

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
kawr
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#61

Post by kawr »

nozh2002 wrote:Do not give me this loser talk - "There is always compromise" - not in real world! There is always better solution and this is why civilization is moving forward so fast lately.

ZDP-189 is as tough as CPM S30V same was for CPM S60V. It may be under some pressure which knife never face some variations in numbers, but for real use no difference. Of course I am talking about properly heat treated ZDP-189 - not overhardened or something.

This songs about CPM S30V toughness is smoke to hide its average performance on what is really important for knife - edge holding.

Only compromise here - easy to machine and heat treat. From customer point of view - ZDP is superior from any angle.

CPM S30V was huge step back from CPM S60V.

Thanks, Vassili.
Vassili = 8 years old? GIMME THE BEST AND ZERO COMPRIMISE!!!! :D
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Farmer Brown
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#62

Post by Farmer Brown »

They're really all the same steel.

They just mixed and matched the numbers to see how you'd quibble over them.
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#63

Post by yosemite »

ChrisR wrote:I think you are talking about the ricasso area (the unsharpened base of a blade, near the handle) which is shaped underneath into a finger choil (a place to locate your leading finger) and the jimping, which gives extra grip?

Basically a good choil provides a better hold when doing tasks that require precision - in SLIPITs it also prevents the knife folding onto the fingers by accident - a really useful safeguard. The jimping just gives a more solid and confident grip that stops your fingers sliding off the knife - or worse, stops them sliding forward onto the blade.

I am a big fan of choils and jimping and they are well worth the extra blade length and steel :)
Why can't the ricasso area be part of the handle, like with most fixed blade knives? My confusion stems from the fact that e.g. in the case of the Stretch, all fingers comfortably fit on the handle itself, and if I use put my thumb on top of the blade and index finger on the bottom, the handle is way too large for the remaining fingers. I'm sorry of this sounds stupid, but how am I supposed to hold a Spyderco folder? The way I currently view it is that for everyday tasks I put my thumb on top of the blade base and the index finger on the bottom (or the other way around, depending on which way I'm cutting), with the other three fingers wrapping the handle, and for self-defense I put all five fingers around the handle?
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#64

Post by yosemite »

Farmer Brown wrote:They're really all the same steel.

They just mixed and matched the numbers to see how you'd quibble over them.
Love this response.

Thanks all for the lively and informative discussion so far btw! It's been very useful.
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#65

Post by defenestrate »

dj moonbat wrote:Please tell me you're banging your shoe on the table while you type these things.
Well played, sir.
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ChrisR
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#66

Post by ChrisR »

yosemite wrote:Why can't the ricasso area be part of the handle, like with most fixed blade knives? My confusion stems from the fact that e.g. in the case of the Stretch, all fingers comfortably fit on the handle itself, and if I use put my thumb on top of the blade and index finger on the bottom, the handle is way too large for the remaining fingers. I'm sorry of this sounds stupid, but how am I supposed to hold a Spyderco folder? The way I currently view it is that for everyday tasks I put my thumb on top of the blade base and the index finger on the bottom (or the other way around, depending on which way I'm cutting), with the other three fingers wrapping the handle, and for self-defense I put all five fingers around the handle?
The way I understand it, if you are doing heavy cutting then a fist-type grip is fine but when you need to do some more delicate cutting the closer to the blade you can get your lead finger, the better - hence having choils. Also, the choil is a safety device too. I can't comment on SD - it's not something I practice over here :)

Of course a ricasso can also be there for design/ergonomic considerations - for instance where the handle has to accommodate a full grip but the blade has a small cutting edge and the blade should be made longer to give balance.
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#67

Post by nozh2002 »

Well, I am old enough to see that this idea "Always Compromise" is simple universal excuse for slaker. It is obvious that it is very easy to find two product one of which is just way better in all points. Just because in one case job is well done in other they just throw it over fence.

To make it easy to understand lets take modern car and 10 years old car. Same price, same quality, same brand. But one is just better because it has all this new engineering solution they did not have 10 years ago new materials etc.

In computers this would be even better to notice. Same we should expect from new steels over old steels, from good manufacturer over lazy one...

I do not buy all those Chinese - "Way to happiness is when you needs and possibilities are same - just lover your need, lower you standards and be happy!". It is way to keep few billions poor people in high concentration out of trouble. But I am from different culture - I have to do my best, I must not to "bury my talent"... This is what drive Western civilization, it is unfortunate that too many forget this now (same actually true for Japan where in culture it is dishonorable to do poor job).

So in short - CPM S30V is failure IMHO and do not deserve attention it got, as well as all other attempts Crucible did lately to answer ZDP-189 challenge. Turn out that there is good manufacturer here in US who already have better steel CTS-XHP (or 440XH) for a while, but knife World was too much Crucible centric and so did not noticed it until now.

Thanks, Vassili.
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The Mentaculous
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#68

Post by The Mentaculous »

My 2 newest knives are my Sage 1 (s30v) and my Caly 3 (ZDP189). Out of the box both have very fine edges...edge felt finer to the touch than VG-10 and cut slightly better (not to say it's necessarily the steel, obv. edge geometry comes into play). However it seems like the ZDP has a noticeably finer edge which is confirmed by the superior cutting performance. Of course, this could be from the Caly's super thin slicing capabilities. but either way both steels have been awesome. I've already touched up my sage, which could show an advantage, because it wasn't too much harder than VG-10 to restore a slightly diminished edge to factory sharpness or better. I've only had my Caly for a day so of course I have no sharpening experience
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Blerv
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#69

Post by Blerv »

nozh2002 wrote:Well, I am old enough to see that this idea "Always Compromise" is simple universal excuse for slaker. It is obvious that it is very easy to find two product one of which is just way better in all points. Just because in one case job is well done in other they just throw it over fence.

To make it easy to understand lets take modern car and 10 years old car. Same price, same quality, same brand. But one is just better because it has all this new engineering solution they did not have 10 years ago new materials etc.

In computers this would be even better to notice. Same we should expect from new steels over old steels, from good manufacturer over lazy one...

I do not buy all those Chinese - "Way to happiness is when you needs and possibilities are same - just lover your need, lower you standards and be happy!". It is way to keep few billions poor people in high concentration out of trouble. But I am from different culture - I have to do my best, I must not to "bury my talent"... This is what drive Western civilization, it is unfortunate that too many forget this now (same actually true for Japan where in culture it is dishonorable to do poor job).

So in short - CPM S30V is failure IMHO and do not deserve attention it got, as well as all other attempts Crucible did lately to answer ZDP-189 challenge. Turn out that there is good manufacturer here in US who already have better steel CTS-XHP (or 440XH) for a while, but knife World was too much Crucible centric and so did not noticed it until now.

Thanks, Vassili.
I actually know "compromise" to be a synonym to "hybrid" in almost all cases. To excel at everything you have to give up perfection one or two categories. Being well-rounded is great in some situations and for others a specialist is much more valued (eg: team of specialists vs team of generalists).

This is why there are very few people who are Football/Formula 1 drivers in the world. You can't be a tiny Italian guy with cat-like reflexes and a 250 pound man-steed. :p

It's true though. Most people use "compromise" as a euphemism for justification to fail. Like, "he compromised grades for a social life." The difference in this case is that MOST people if they TRY can attain a decent level of both without completely throwing away and calling it an attempt.

Diminishing returns are reality if you are pushing limits to the extreme. If you aren't and calling it "compromising" you are simply being lazy, cheap, or a combination of the two.

The reason why we don't have 14.4 modems anymore is better technology made them obsolete in every way. My laptop today is better in every way than the one that I had in 1995...it's also about 1/10th the price without considering inflation.

If CPM-S30v was obsolete it wouldn't exist anymore. Last I checked it's still a quite popular offering. Likely because Crucible has a niche in smaller knife making circles. Same reason why Chris Reeves doesn't work with ZDP-189.
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#70

Post by dbcad »

I notice a finer edge on all of my new ZDP knives also. The ones in vg-10 and s30v come sharp but not as sharp as ZDP :D This is true with the Walker, 2 Delica's, Endura, and Stretch. Even though the Walker has been pretty well used I still don't feel a need to touch it up. My ZDP blades seem consistent in their edge holding also.

Can't comment on s30v regarding edge holding as I haven't used my 2 s30v blades enough to tell for me. vg-10 is great for most all of of my needs, gets sharp, stays sharp, easy to sharpen, very stainless. I would suspect s30v would be the same. Then again most of my vg-10 blades act consistently the same, suggesting a consistent material and HT. Maybe the material and HT has not been so consistent for the s30v that's been used??

I appreciate Nozh's testing, he does in the most scientific manner he can with repeatability. It is the most comprehensive non professional testing testing I come across. Other testing on blades by others using different criteria would be useful, but as yet I haven't seen it. I'm inclined to give Nozh's testing credit.

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#71

Post by Ankerson »

I don't think you can really compare the 2 steels, they are way too different in every aspect.

S30V wasn't really that good to begin with IMO, it's OK, but not nearly as good as it was hyped up to be. I was never impressed with it personally because of the way it was hyped and IMO it never lived up to it. Everyone was like WOW it's best thing since sliced bread etc, etc. Well after I bought a few different knives in that steel I wasn't very impressed and I'm still not to this day after even more.

What S30V does well is that it's tough and great for harder use blades and it keeps a working edge for a long time.

ZDP is really in a class almost by itself and better for how most people really use their knives.

I will take ZDP over S30V every time given the choice of the same knife with the 2 steel options for an EDC type blade.

There are also others that are IMO awesome steels that are leaps and bounds better than S30V.
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#72

Post by dj moonbat »

In our next thread: yellowcake v. enriched uranium.
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#73

Post by The Mastiff »

I notice a finer edge on all of my new ZDP knives also. The ones in vg-10 and s30v come sharp but not as sharp as ZD
dbcad, the edge that was sharpened on a knife isn't an indication of steel quality. I recently took a new FFG byrd and sharpened it until just the weight of the knife blade resting on my finger has the edge beginning to separate the skin and start push cutting in.

Does that make it a better steel than any other? My FFG ZDP knife isn't that sharp, out of the box anyway.

knife steels are a balance of toughness, corrosion resistance, and wear resistance. One may value wear resistance above all others, like Vasili. Others, corrosion resistance, some like tough choppers. Steels are like tools, designed for different purposes. That's all. No magic here, though they are fun to play with, just like tools. :)
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#74

Post by nozh2002 »

The Mastiff wrote:dbcad, the edge that was sharpened on a knife isn't an indication of steel quality. I recently took a new FFG byrd and sharpened it until just the weight of the knife blade resting on my finger has the edge beginning to separate the skin and start push cutting in.

Does that make it a better steel than any other? My FFG ZDP knife isn't that sharp, out of the box anyway.

knife steels are a balance of toughness, corrosion resistance, and wear resistance. One may value wear resistance above all others, like Vasili. Others, corrosion resistance, some like tough choppers. Steels are like tools, designed for different purposes. That's all. No magic here, though they are fun to play with, just like tools. :)
I do not value wear resistance - this is property manufacturer looking for. This is why they refuse to do CPM S125V and do not like CPM S90V. This is why they push too hard to "replace" CPM S60V with CPM S30V. Because it is 6 times less wear resistant and so need less work to grind etc...

Most abrasive resistant steel from what I tested is CPM S90V as well as CPM 10V, both demonstrates same results - not best.

What I value is simple - how long knife works before I have to resharpen it. Simple understandable criteria and this is what I guess most people looking for - knife is to cut. Thing like corrosion resistance is way secondary - until it rust like T1 steel, but any stainless steel is fine and you need to pay special effort to make it corrode, so this is of course some steel better then other, but this difference for practical purposes is nothing. Until of course you are in unique environment like Pite1977 - working in the saltwater.

Toughness - that's a big smoke to hide poor edge holding. Again until my knife break apart - I do not care about toughness, and so far none of my knife broke apart even with so called "brittle" steel, even tip. Only broken tip I remember was on Persian which was CPM S30V BTW.

I guess some may consider other properties of steels - color or shiness or whatever. But at the end knife should cut and longer it cuts - better.

So if CPM S30V little bit tougher, but cuts twice less then CPM S60V - this is not good replacement.

At some point of my life long ago I worked in company which was selling computers. When I asked sales - our competitors has better machine what can we do - he smile and explained me about well balanced solution, fine architecture etc we provides rather then faster but less balanced competitors crap...

So when I hear about well balance of properties - it kind of ring a bell...

CPM S30V average steel and ZDP-189 is high class and better in any regards. Spyderco just need to fix their contractors to do adequate heat treatment all the time and provide good quality control.

Thanks, Vassili.
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#75

Post by The Mastiff »

Most abrasive resistant steel from what I tested is CPM S90V as well as CPM 10V, both demonstrates same results - not best.

What I value is simple - how long knife works before I have to resharpen it.
Edge retention, and stability all fall under the umbrella of abrasion resistance, right? You value the extreme sharp edges over the extreme "working edge" as it's referred to that the vanadium steels are known for. So it seems.

Yablanowitz might prefer the durability of edge and long cutting on old carpets and wallboard that the steels like S90V, and 10V excel at with their large vanadium carbides.

As you stated, there are people who work in environments that need and desire corrosion resistance and prefer H1 over any other steel.

This isn't a "everybodies wrong, and I'm right" situation. This is "there's a flavor for everybody" situation and I'm glad of it, to be honest.
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#76

Post by JNewell »

dj moonbat wrote:In our next thread: yellowcake v. enriched uranium.

I've given up on blades. Steel is so...yesterday. I'm carrying a high-power LED lightsaber now. :eek:
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#77

Post by yosemite »

OK, Vassili, but do you agree with the other posters that S30V should be "toothier" than ZDP-189, because the latter is finer grained steel?
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#78

Post by SaturnNyne »

dj moonbat wrote:Please tell me you're banging your shoe on the table while you type these things.
HA! Thank you for that. :D

00max00 wrote:Average results? By what standard?
Don't feed 'em! Don't! ;)

Well maybe just a little...
nozh2002 wrote:From customer point of view - ZDP is superior from any angle.
I'm a customer and I've used both steels. The superiority of ZDP that you mention doesn't show up in my uses. Neither does the inferiority of S30. You've clearly found the better steel for your use though.

"Then you must only have used ZDP with incorrect girly heat treat!" *bang bang bangs shoe*

yosemite wrote:My confusion stems from the fact that e.g. in the case of the Stretch, all fingers comfortably fit on the handle itself, and if I use put my thumb on top of the blade and index finger on the bottom, the handle is way too large for the remaining fingers. I'm sorry of this sounds stupid, but how am I supposed to hold a Spyderco folder?
Basically, in the case of the Stretch, you hold it however works for you, and having the choil there gives you that option to choke up on it if that's what works best in your situation. Without the choil, there wouldn't be any question because there wouldn't be any choice, but you'd have an extra half inch of edge near the handle that may or may not have practical value to you. On small knives, a choil can help provide room to grip despite compact handle size.

Farmer Brown wrote:They're really all the same steel.

They just mixed and matched the numbers to see how you'd quibble over them.
Now that's just not true! ZDP is metric, so there are potential differences in the rounding errors.

nozh2002 wrote:Only broken tip I remember was on Persian which was CPM S30V BTW.
I didn't even know there was an S30V Persian...

nozh2002 wrote:...he smile and explained me about well balanced solution, fine architecture etc we provides rather then faster but less balanced competitors crap...

So when I hear about well balance of properties - it kind of ring a bell...

CPM S30V average steel and ZDP-189 is high class and better in any regards.
Your point is that when something is better in one obvious way, it is thus better in every regard for every user? :confused:

The Mastiff wrote:knife steels are a balance of toughness, corrosion resistance, and wear resistance. . . Steels are like tools, designed for different purposes. That's all. No magic here, though they are fun to play with, just like tools. :)
The Mastiff wrote:This isn't a "everybodies wrong, and I'm right" situation. This is "there's a flavor for everybody" situation and I'm glad of it, to be honest.
QFT, that pretty much sums it up. For the new folks in this thread who may not know: listen to Mastiff, he knows his stuff and is providing the voice of experience.
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Blerv
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#79

Post by Blerv »

Haha great post Saturn!

Agreed on The Mastiff. Him and a few others quickly make me shut up, read and bookmark. :)
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#80

Post by nozh2002 »

SaturnNyne wrote:HA! Thank you for that. :D

I'm a customer and I've used both steels. The superiority of ZDP that you mention doesn't show up in my uses. Neither does the inferiority of S30. You've clearly found the better steel for your use though.

"Then you must only have used ZDP with incorrect girly heat treat!" *bang bang bangs shoe*

[ALL UNNECESSARY AND INFLAMMATORY POLITICAL CONTENT EDITED OUT BY MICHAEL JANICH. GIST: NIKITA KRUSHCHEV BANGED HIS SHOE ON HIS DESK DURING A UN DEBATE IN OCTOBER 1960.]

So what exactely is your experience with ZDP-189 and CPM S30V, how did you test it (I know you most likely did not, but worse to try to ask). What is exact results?

Because I clearly did quite some testing to find that ZDP189 at all points better then CPM S30V. I also rate all other steels etc.

What did you done?

(I know you heart somewhere about shoe bang)

Thanks, Vassili.
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