S30V vs. ZDP 189

[Blerv]

Where can I find the full results for that test.

It was an independant test of cutting rope I believe.

My understanding is that the CATRA test is the most scientific method of testing edge holding where a piece of steel is held and material passes over the blade measuring degradation. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: some info I found interesting via search. I think the second post has a link to the rope cutting test in the thread.

Hi Rorschach. *The serrated version, all things being equal will generally double the amount of "mm of cut" that the plain edge. *

Initial cut will be better with teeth but not by so great a difference.

Some steels serrated, for some reason will more than double the plain edge results in total card cut.

sal

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showpost ... ostcount=2

In particular we would like the ones like BG42, 154cm, CPM D2, CPM M4, etc.*

The last group of results you listed went like this:


440C 360-400
VG10 500-510
S30V 550-580
S90V 750
ZDP 189 750
S125V *1200

We would greatly appreciate any info you would like to part with that you don't feel is proprietary, or controversial in some way. Thanks. *Joe

http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthre ... ight=Catra

[nozh2002]

Where can I find the full results for that test.

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila ... sults.html

Thanks, Vassili.

[THG]

^^ That MIGHT be the case, but I find it the ZDP actually EASIER to sharpen, but a much longer time. I use my belt sander on ZDP and I don't recall I can get the ZDP to create burr at all. If you are using stones and sharpen by hand, YMMV

I can get ZDP to burr. I hand-sharpen with diamond stones.

I do find that the burr on ZDP-189 is a lot easier to take off than VG-10 whose burr seems to like to flop back and forth. So I agree with you in that sense that ZDP-189 is easier to sharpen.

[LowTEC]

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila ... sults.html

Thanks, Vassili.

Is it possible to do some test on Spyderco's ZDP, I notice Yuna's are at 65 Rc while :spyder: are significantly harder at 68 Rc, it would be interesting to see the performance difference base on the different hardness :cool:

It is also funny to see D2 and and 1095 performance differences are all over the place, according to your testing

[bdbender]

CPM S30V is better to machine and cost less, for everything else it is behind ZDP189.

I learned that in real life there is no really compromises in different properties, except price. ZDP189 is harder and tougher then CPM S30V (at 65HRC), it is as easy as CPM S30V to sharpen and as stainless as CPM S30V. There is no other differentce but cost and availability.

Thanks, Vassili.

For purposes of discussion (it's all good - no desire to argue) my personal real life experience is that there is very little difference between them. My uses aren't very demanding, mostly slicing paper and cardboard and peeling grapefruits, with some trimming of small branches to get them out of the way of the chainsaw while cutting firewood on the ranch.

With regard to toughness, I have managed to put a couple of very small notches in the edge of the ZDP Caly3 and also an S30V Native on these firewood expeditions, when each knife was new. I attribute this to the brittle-spots-in-new-edges syndrome that has been discussed in other threads, and don't see it as a characteristic of either steel.

For my uses, comparing two knives with identical form factors (UKPK and Caly3), either steel works fine for me. Both are noticeably better at edge holding than the other Spyderco steels I use, such as VG-10 and 8CR13MOV. I don't feel at all like I took a step down when changing my EDC from the ZDP Caly to the S30V UKPK.

PS: FWIW, when I first got into these newer steels, I was stropping as the final step in sharpening, using 0.5 micron abrasive film on a flat surface. After some puzzling results, I found that I was creating a small wire edge by doing this (you can usually see a wire edge if the light is coming toward you and you hold the blade at the proper angle). That was when I got the ultra-fine stones for the Sharpmaker, and now I just use those and try very carefully to be consistent in my strokes. I also go slower than I used to, again hoping to be more consistent.

[THG]

PS: FWIW, when I first got into these newer steels, I was stropping as the final step in sharpening, using 0.5 micron abrasive film on a flat surface. After some puzzling results, I found that I was creating a small wire edge by doing this

If you didn't completely remove your burr while sharpening on the stones, you might have just kinda straightened it out. Then when you went to strop, it flopped out again.

[nozh2002]

Is it possible to do some test on Spyderco's ZDP, I notice Yuna's are at 65 Rc while :spyder: are significantly harder at 68 Rc, it would be interesting to see the performance difference base on the different hardness :cool:

It is also funny to see D2 and and 1095 performance differences are all over the place, according to your testing

I also know this. Japanese knifemaker who first to my knowledge uses ZDP-189 recommends to use 65HRC. I do not know what Spyderco contractors in Japan do. I notices unexpected edge micro chipping on Lum Chinese ZDP-189 knife. I may try test it but later - I need to do good pause to not to injure my wrist. I am wondering if I can lower this hardness in my kitchen stove.

It is absolutely different steel - propritery heat treated by Dozier D2, Japanese D2 on KaBar (I doubt it is exact same steel, but most likely some Japanes production analog of it), Friction Forgd D2 and some generic HT D2 from Benchmade.

Also it is hard to compare personally heat treated by member of ABS with hammon 1095 and again production 1095 on GEC knife.

They are not same steels to me, this difference is expected. If they would be same - life will be much easy, no need to pay extra for custom knife from Jody Muller, just by GEC (this was my bet when I bough GEC folder, but test brings me back to reality).

Regards, Vassili.

[The Mastiff]

Spyderco's ZDP folders average about RC 64.5 to RC 65 pretty consistently. Only the mule teams were in the RC 66-67 range, and they caused enough problems that Spyderco pulled them because of it.

I still have my full hardness mule. I just treat it like what it is, and have had no problems. No question you have to be more careful, and have better technique with it at RC 67.

It's a slicer supreme at that hardness though. For sushi and similar uses which require really thin grinds and sharp blades but don't have much impact type encounters it's an excellent steel/hardness combo.

For all around use the regular spyderco heat treat& geometry has been perfect for my uses. Talk about being light years ahead of 80's and 90's top quality high performance knives ( M2 and "V" (Vascowear)steel Gerbers, 440C etc. )

The only ones from back then that really compare as far as production knives were some of the 52100 Marbles skinners and in folders not much until the M2 benchmades came out. Even they were limited due to being kept relatively soft, leaving much potential untapped. I don't know of any old folders that can compare performance and ergonomics wise, to be honest.

[JNewell]

Joe, I always enjoy and profit from reading your posts.

You mention M2 in your post - here's a question for you:someone responded to a post of mine on another forum by saying that the M2 Ritter Grips blew away the new M4 Ritter Grips in terms of the attributes of the steel. The grinds are obviously the same, and the spec'd hardness is the same. I honestly can't find anything that would support that contention, but wonder if you have any thoughts on that?

Sal & crew have really made Spyderco the center of the universe in the past few years in terms of bringing new, uncommon and "exotic" steel to the production knife market, even if that only happens in increments of 500-1000 at a time. It's no wonder most of my knife budget goes in that direction these days.

Spyderco's ZDP folders average about RC 64.5 to RC 65 pretty consistently. Only the mule teams were in the RC 66-67 range, and they caused enough problems that Spyderco pulled them because of it.

I still have my full hardness mule. I just treat it like what it is, and have had no problems. No question you have to be more careful, and have better technique with it at RC 67.

It's a slicer supreme at that hardness though. For sushi and similar uses which require really thin grinds and sharp blades but don't have much impact type encounters it's an excellent steel/hardness combo.

For all around use the regular spyderco heat treat& geometry has been perfect for my uses. Talk about being light years ahead of 80's and 90's top quality high performance knives ( M2 and "V" (Vascowear)steel Gerbers, 440C etc. )

The only ones from back then that really compare as far as production knives were some of the 52100 Marbles skinners and in folders not much until the M2 benchmades came out. Even they were limited due to being kept relatively soft, leaving much potential untapped. I don't know of any old folders that can compare performance and ergonomics wise, to be honest.

[bdbender]

If you didn't completely remove your burr while sharpening on the stones, you might have just kinda straightened it out. Then when you went to strop, it flopped out again.

Yeah, that could very well be it. In any case I check carefully these days, since there seems to be a more careful touch needed with these steels.

Also, maybe it's my not-perfect technique, but my knives seem to "settle down" after the first few sharpenings / touch-ups when new. Maybe they just have to get used to the way I do it...

[The Mastiff]

I had an M2 Ritter, but haven't bought a CPM M4 Ritter for a direct comparison. I have 1 M2 knife left out of the 6 or 8 I had. I now have 6 or 8 CPM M4 blades from Benchmade and Spyderco.

I can't say the M2 is better than the M4 in Benchmades. They both sharpen very easily for me and take great edges. Benchmade claims RC 60-62 for both steels but everybody I'm aware of that independently tested them found them to be nearer RC 58-59. I know some folks that had them re heat treated for this reason.

If someone prefers M2 over M4 I've got no problem with that. I don't know what kind of attributes you could use to label the older M2 blades as being superior.

I've found CPM M4 to sharpen as easily, take if anything, better edges, and has a bit better edge retention in the Spydercos.

If he prefers M2 it's more likely a familiarity issue rather than a true performance one unless he was one that had it rehardened to RC 65-66, and thinned out. Even so it's performance over Spyderco's CPM M4 at near RC 64 is questionable to me.

They really are both excellent and I can live with either to be honest. In my opinion though, M2 at RC 58-59 is a waste of performance. CPM M4 and M2 are plenty strong at higher hardnesses IMO.

[JNewell]

Wow, I hadn't heard they were that soft...thanks Joe.

I had an M2 Ritter, but haven't bought a CPM M4 Ritter for a direct comparison. I have 1 M2 knife left out of the 6 or 8 I had. I now have 6 or 8 CPM M4 blades from Benchmade and Spyderco.

I can't say the M2 is better than the M4 in Benchmades. They both sharpen very easily for me and take great edges. Benchmade claims RC 60-62 for both steels but everybody I'm aware of that independently tested them found them to be nearer RC 58-59. I know some folks that had them re heat treated for this reason.

If someone prefers M2 over M4 I've got no problem with that. I don't know what kind of attributes you could use to label the older M2 blades as being superior.

I've found CPM M4 to sharpen as easily, take if anything, better edges, and has a bit better edge retention in the Spydercos.

If he prefers M2 it's more likely a familiarity issue rather than a true performance one unless he was one that had it rehardened to RC 65-66, and thinned out. Even so it's performance over Spyderco's CPM M4 at near RC 64 is questionable to me.

They really are both excellent and I can live with either to be honest. In my opinion though, M2 at RC 58-59 is a waste of performance. CPM M4 and M2 are plenty strong at higher hardnesses IMO.

[yosemite]

S30V seems to make a better slicer, with its toothy carbide edge. While ZDP-189 (and VG-10) are smoother push-cutting steels. I've come to prefer S30V.

My first post on this forum...I'm unearthing this thread as I just got a S30V Sage and a ZDP-189 Stretch and the S30V is significantly sharper at least as sent from the factory. I'd like to understand if Spyderco simply put the ZDP through the inferior sharpening procedure or whether there is something fundamental about the steel's molecular makeup's that makes the S30V the sharper knife. So can someone confirm Carlos' post above and possibly add some background information about the "toothier carbide edge"? I recall reading somewhere that ZDP should be a supreme slicer due to its "micro-serration" (but can't recover this post now...) which would somewhat contradict Carlos' experience. Does anybody have some insider knowledge here? Thanks much in advance!

In case you're wondering why I ordered both knives: I wanted to get a better feeling for how they compare than I can by looking at pictures photos. I can only afford one, so will send the other back. This is why I'm not going to do any sharpening experiments on them myself and have to rely on the factory pre-sharpening when comparing the steels and also can't cut anything substantial before I settle on one.

[The Deacon]

My first post on this forum...I'm unearthing this thread as I just got a S30V Sage and a ZDP-189 Stretch and the S30V is significantly sharper at least as sent from the factory. I'd like to understand if Spyderco simply put the ZDP through the inferior sharpening procedure or whether there is something fundamental about the steel's molecular makeup's that makes the S30V the sharper knife. So can someone confirm Carlos' post above and possibly add some background information about the "toothier carbide edge"? I recall reading somewhere that ZDP should be a supreme slicer due to its "micro-serration" (but can't recover this post now...) which would somewhat contradict Carlos' experience. Does anybody have some insider knowledge here? Thanks much in advance!

In case you're wondering why I ordered both knives: I wanted to get a better feeling for how they compare than I can by looking at pictures photos. I can only afford one, so will send the other back. This is why I'm not going to do any sharpening experiments on them myself and have to rely on the factory pre-sharpening when comparing the steels and also can't cut anything substantial before I settle on one.

It's not a question of "an inferior sharpening procedure". All Spyderco knifes are sharpened by hand, so there's always a chance any given knife will be "less sharp" out of the box than average. Both ZDP-189 and CPM S30V are capable of taking very good, but different, edges. As noted, S30V takes a toothier edge.

[Blerv]

My first post on this forum...I'm unearthing this thread as I just got a S30V Sage and a ZDP-189 Stretch and the S30V is significantly sharper at least as sent from the factory. I'd like to understand if Spyderco simply put the ZDP through the inferior sharpening procedure or whether there is something fundamental about the steel's molecular makeup's that makes the S30V the sharper knife. So can someone confirm Carlos' post above and possibly add some background information about the "toothier carbide edge"? I recall reading somewhere that ZDP should be a supreme slicer due to its "micro-serration" (but can't recover this post now...) which would somewhat contradict Carlos' experience. Does anybody have some insider knowledge here? Thanks much in advance!

In case you're wondering why I ordered both knives: I wanted to get a better feeling for how they compare than I can by looking at pictures photos. I can only afford one, so will send the other back. This is why I'm not going to do any sharpening experiments on them myself and have to rely on the factory pre-sharpening when comparing the steels and also can't cut anything substantial before I settle on one.

Welcome to the forums! :)

Besides blade geometry differences between knives they are sharpened by hand. The Stretch and Sage also come from different plants.

While all my Spyderco's came very sharp some more than others. I have seen pictures of a Manix2 that came quite dull which was quickly amended and personally addressed by Sal.

The technical answer is that ZDP will take a more acute angle than S30v and hold it longer with less tenancy for deformation. Sal sometimes says, "All good, just different" which would apply to this comparison.

How much sharper was the S30v one? Did they both slice paper?

[TBob]

I haven't had any trouble sharpening my Stretch CF on the Sharpmaker, and it doesn't seem to take that much longer than the S30v on my other knives. I've hear on the forums that ZDP stains easier, so I try to keep it clean. That's not a burden, because I always clean off my knives after use, especially in the kitchen or BBQing.

I agree that S30v's edge tends to be "toothier" and it cuts like crazy. I have the scars to prove it. The ZDP-189 edge seems smoother or wears smoother more quickly, but stays sharp longer. I don't have any problems w/burrs on the Sharpmaker, but always finish w/the ultra fine sticks.

Overall, S30v remains my favorite. I think that it has the perfect balance of edge retention, stain resistance, and ability to take a keen edge. But the overall difference isn't that great. I EDC the Stretch w/ZDP-198 mostly because of its comfort in my hand and the CF scales. If it had an S30v blade, I'd still EDC it.

[Chris_Himself]

The quick answer is that ZDP-189 will do everything better. It's the super steel. It's so darn exotic that it outright doesn't even belong on knives, yet Spyderco chooses to offer them to you in a sub 100 dollar knife.

S30V will give you microserrations that work towards your favor in day to day cutting, but if you want the thinnest most laser-like edge possible (22 degrees and under) and not have your knife spit it back at you, go ZDP-189.

It's not any harder to sharpen than S30V, if you have a sharpmaker or a medium sized benchstone.

As for as edge retention goes, I hardly notice a difference between S30V and VG-10 except for the finer grain structure, but then again that was CPM-S30V vs VG-10. I forget what Benchmade's S30V feels like.

[yosemite]

Thanks for the responses! What exactly makes the S30V "toothier", on a molecular level?

The two main sharpness tests I've done are cutting/gliding through individual sheets of paper and gliding it over my skin without applying any pressure (only the pressure of the knife). In the former, I had troubles getting the ZDP to start cutting into the papers' edge, but once it was in, it did glide through OK. The S30V immediately engaged and went through somewhat better as well. Of course this is highly unscientific, and depends crucially on the amount of "sawing" back/forward motion during the cutting. On the skin test, the ZDP did nothing (even though the blade/knife is a bit heavier than the Sage), whereas the S30V of the Sage actually cut into my skin. I also tried to see how well they grip on fingernail when placed at a sharp edge. The Sage was clearly superior, however it seems to have been sharpened at a somewhat smaller angle which might explain some of this.

[dj moonbat]

Thanks for the responses! What exactly makes the S30V "toothier", on a molecular level?

The carbides are pointing in different directions. I think.

[Blerv]

I'm no chemist but I think that S30v just has a "toothy" finish compared to a select number of super steels. Remembe the CPM process is about grain structure homogenization/organizing.

A factor could be ZDP's ungodly level of Chromium. It's got a ton of it.