S30V vs. ZDP 189

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
The Deacon
Member
Posts: 25287
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Upstate SC, USA
Contact:

Postby The Deacon » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:18 pm

For me, it's about knives, more than steels. So far, almost all the Spydercos I really like come from Japan so my steel choice is most often between VG-10 and ZDP-189. The midlock version of the Sage may change that, when it finally arrives, but for now, the only S30V knife of mine that sees any use at all is a Native. On the other hand, that Native is my beater and loaner, so it has seen a fair amount of resharpening. I'd rate ZDP as noticeably better when it comes to edge holding, but more time consuming to sharpen. That in spite of the fact I've never allowed either of my ZDP users to get really dull, while the Native has been returned to me with a "child safe" edge a couple times. I I'd also say they perform best, at least for me, with different edges. ZDP with a very smooth edge, S30V with a much coarser, toothier, one. I'd rate S30V as the more stain and rust resistant, and ZDP-189 as the more scratch resistant of the two, although neither is really "less" by all that much.

As with most things in life, YMMV.

FWIW, William Henry was the first US maker to use ZDP-189 and Blade magazine did a write up of their thoughts on it, and Sal's, in their February 2005 issue. Here's an excerpt from it.
To test ZDP-189, William Henry Knives sent one of its model B15 folders with the steel to an independent source. According to WHK’s Rick Thronburg, after 100 cuts through 1-inch manila rope and with the edge still cutting well, testing was concluded. By comparison, here is how some other steels performed in the same test:

•440C: 15 cuts;
•154CM: 18 cuts, and;
•D-2: 30 cuts.

“At some point in the future, we will run the test again to see how far beyond 100 cuts ZDP can go,” Thronburg noted. “But for now, ZDP-189 so completely eclipsed the performance of conventional steels, we had our answer.”—

by BLADE® staff
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!

User avatar
JNewell
Member
Posts: 5046
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Land of the Bean and the Cod

Postby JNewell » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:55 pm

Great retrospective, Paul - thank you!

A lot of these "discussions" seem to revolve around whether 99.4% is better than 99.45%, and whether the methodology involved in producing the numbers was valid.

I really believe that for almost all knife users, the differences - even the relatively significant differences - between today's high end steels are largely academic and at any rate (as you say) pale in comparison to differences in ergonomics and related ->knife<- (as opposed to steel) issues.

YMMV...

John
The Deacon wrote:For me, it's about knives, more than steels. So far, almost all the Spydercos I really like come from Japan so my steel choice is most often between VG-10 and ZDP-189. The midlock version of the Sage may change that, when it finally arrives, but for now, the only S30V knife of mine that sees any use at all is a Native. On the other hand, that Native is my beater and loaner, so it has seen a fair amount of resharpening. I'd rate ZDP as noticeably better when it comes to edge holding, but more time consuming to sharpen. That in spite of the fact I've never allowed either of my ZDP users to get really dull, while the Native has been returned to me with a "child safe" edge a couple times. I I'd also say they perform best, at least for me, with different edges. ZDP with a very smooth edge, S30V with a much coarser, toothier, one. I'd rate S30V as the more stain and rust resistant, and ZDP-189 as the more scratch resistant of the two, although neither is really "less" by all that much.

As with most things in life, YMMV.

FWIW, William Henry was the first US maker to use ZDP-189 and Blade magazine did a write up of their thoughts on it, and Sal's, in their February 2005 issue. Here's an excerpt from it.

The General
Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby The General » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:01 pm

I would take ZDP-189 any day over S30V. No question.
My real name is Wayne :D

User avatar
The Deacon
Member
Posts: 25287
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Upstate SC, USA
Contact:

Postby The Deacon » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:13 pm

JNewell wrote:Great retrospective, Paul - thank you!

A lot of these "discussions" seem to revolve around whether 99.4% is better than 99.45%, and whether the methodology involved in producing the numbers was valid.

I really believe that for almost all knife users, the differences - even the relatively significant differences - between today's high end steels are largely academic and at any rate (as you say) pale in comparison to differences in ergonomics and related ->knife<- (as opposed to steel) issues.

YMMV...

John
To be sure. Old fart that I am, if the Stretch or C83 Persian suddenly became available in all three steels, I'd take VG-10 over both S30V and ZDP-189. Decent stain and rust resistance, brain dead easy to sharpen and, given my normal knife usage, holds an edge plenty long enough for me.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!

User avatar
TBob
Member
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:49 pm
Location: NoVA USA Earth

Postby TBob » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:45 pm

The Deacon wrote:For me, it's about knives, more than steels.
Ditto. The steel is one part of the entire package, which for me must be considered as a whole. Great steel and crummy ergos is a non-starter. Since Spyderco only offers good steel in its blades, I don't worry so much about it. I'm not a collector. I buy a knife based on my requirements for it and its ability to meet those requirements, and trust Sal and Eric to make good trades in design and manufacturing.

Unless, of course, it's really cool (quit laughing, Kristi!) Then I'll buy it and develop a requirement for it later as I'm explaining the box in the mail to my wife. :cool:
:spyder:: Advocate, Slysz Bowie Ti, Southard Black Blade, Stretch Carbon Fiber w/ZDP-189, Fluted Ti Native5, Terzuola Starmate, Terzuola SLIPIT, Leaf Storm, Gayle Bradley, Roadie, Chaparral CF, Chaparral Ti Stealth, Des Horn, Stretch FRN (Blue) ZDP-189, Centofante Memory, Military Black Blade CE, Delica4 FRN CE, Endura4 FRN Black Blade CE, Assist Orange FRN, Manbug ZDP-189, Ladybug 3 FRN SE, Delica4 Blue NLEOMF, Moran Drop Point BB, et al. :spyder: Spydie Fanatic #179 :spyder:

User avatar
ChrisR
Member
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:29 am
Location: UK

Postby ChrisR » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:49 pm

Yeah, design is definitely the most important for me - it has to look good and work well for my usual EDC tasks. That said, I seem to just buy UKPKs so the knife design is great anyway and the steel is adequate for me :) It's unlikely that they'd make them in ZDP-189 or VG-10 anyway (Japanese) so there's not much point me dreaming of it :D But if they offered other more exotic steels in a good knife design then I'd get one :)
My spydies: Squeak, Tenacious, Terzuola, D'Allara, UKPK CF peel-ply pre-production, UKPK CF smooth pre-production, UKPK G10 orange leaf-blade, UKPK FRN grey drop-point, UKPK FRN maroon leaf-blade, Bug ... all PE blades :)

The General
Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby The General » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:26 pm

ChrisR wrote:Yeah, design is definitely the most important for me - it has to look good and work well for my usual EDC tasks. That said, I seem to just buy UKPKs so the knife design is great anyway and the steel is adequate for me :) It's unlikely that they'd make them in ZDP-189 or VG-10 anyway (Japanese) so there's not much point me dreaming of it :D But if they offered other more exotic steels in a good knife design then I'd get one :)
Agreed, a sprint run UKPK in S35V would be nice... :D
My real name is Wayne :D

nozh2002
Member
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:56 pm

Postby nozh2002 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:02 pm

jabba359 wrote:Hey! You do have a sense of humor! That actually made me laugh out loud! If you were to use the "Clinton-Lewinsky bang" comeback in such a way, I would have to admit that your retort was well played, give you a hearty congratulations on your wit and humor, and move on. Life's too short to let such trivial jokes insult you. People make fun of things that pertain to me in certain ways all the time. I either laugh it off or pity their ignorance. The choice is mine whether or not to be personally insulted, and I choose not to be.
Sense of humor is surviving skill, and if you ever had to survive you know this.

This would be OK with me and we would be even.

But in this case we have "Special Project Coordinator" removed my reply to you and "summarized" it with what you started it with.

Because this is what happened here. He take other side, side which started this, and shut me up. And it was not some member it was "Spyderco Special Project Coordinator" "doing his job". So this is Spyderco not Janich acting on his own.

And him as well as Sal does not see anything worse of apologize. This really disappoint me.

Thanks, Vassili.

The General
Member
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby The General » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:07 pm

If the menu is not to your taste, find somewhere else to eat.

You are seriously annoying me now.

*must bite my tongue* :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
My real name is Wayne :D

User avatar
dbcad
Member
Posts: 3111
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:59 pm
Location: ga, usa

Postby dbcad » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:00 pm

I once got a black eye for getting into the middle of a fight. It's a moment I won't forget. But I have to leave this thread with this;

I appreciate just about all I hear on this forum as my experience is most likely not extensive as most of the folks I listen too. This forum taught me to sharpen ( beginner ), has clued me in to steel properties, and has introduced me to products I would not not have imagined only 2 years ago. It's all positive for me or at least I try to make it so.

Vassili tests because he has training, knowledge, discipline and passion to do it. And it is done repetitively. I respect that. If I disagree from what I experience or hear there is no point in trying to debase his personal testing. He has his results and Spyderco has there's. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" result.

I take in what others write on the forum and the responsibility of determining what is valid lies on me. It makes no sense to tell or demand that someone else is wrong in this online medium. We might be seperated by hundreds or thousands of miles.

Like I said before the reuben, life is too short for online squabbles. You're never going to convince anyone of anything they don't want to believe. I have a diamond head myself :)

Charlie
Charlie

" Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler."

[CENTER]"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"[/CENTER]

Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 1653
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

Postby Michael Janich » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:27 am

nozh2002 wrote:Sense of humor is surviving skill, and if you ever had to survive you know this.

This would be OK with me and we would be even.

But in this case we have "Special Project Coordinator" removed my reply to you and "summarized" it with what you started it with.

Because this is what happened here. He take other side, side which started this, and shut me up. And it was not some member it was "Spyderco Special Project Coordinator" "doing his job". So this is Spyderco not Janich acting on his own.

And him as well as Sal does not see anything worse of apologize. This really disappoint me.

Thanks, Vassili.
Vassili:

Your post #149 expressed your feelings on the historically significant effects of Kruschev's contributions. It also managed to do that without profanity. The post that I edited didn't do that. That's why it was edited. Had you abided by the forum rules in your first post, there wouldn't have been an issue.

Now that the pertinent content of your original post has been replaced in this thread, I hope we can focus on a respectful dialogue on the original topic.

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

nozh2002
Member
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:56 pm

Postby nozh2002 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:22 am

Michael Janich wrote:Vassili:

Your post #149 expressed your feelings on the historically significant effects of Kruschev's contributions. It also managed to do that without profanity. The post that I edited didn't do that. That's why it was edited. Had you abided by the forum rules in your first post, there wouldn't have been an issue.

Now that the pertinent content of your original post has been replaced in this thread, I hope we can focus on a respectful dialogue on the original topic.

Mike
Now it is clear that you did understand meaning of my reply.

Why then your "summary" did not reflect what I had sad, but rather repeat attack, twisting meaning of my comment?

Why did you take other side and continue it?

Thanks, Vassili.

User avatar
JNewell
Member
Posts: 5046
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Land of the Bean and the Cod

Postby JNewell » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:06 pm

nozh2002 wrote:Now it is clear that you did understand meaning of my reply.

Why then your "summary" did not reflect what I had sad, but rather repeat attack, twisting meaning of my comment?

Why did you take other side and continue it?

Thanks, Vassili.

Please, may we return to speaking about knives, steel, and related topics??? :(

Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 1653
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

Postby Michael Janich » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:32 pm

nozh2002 wrote:Now it is clear that you did understand meaning of my reply.

Why then your "summary" did not reflect what I had sad, but rather repeat attack, twisting meaning of my comment?

Why did you take other side and continue it?

Thanks, Vassili.
I didn't repeat an attack. I provided a concise reference to the historical event for those who were unfamiliar with it. In doing so, I preserved the salient elements of your post that were relevant to the topic at hand. Since the redacted portion of your post violated the rules of the forum, I showed you an appropriate level of courtesy by preserving the remainder of its content.

If you have an important thought or idea that you want to share on these forums, please post in a manner consistent with the forum rules. Your second post on Mr. Kruschev did that. Your first did not.

Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts

User avatar
Blerv
Member
Posts: 11695
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 11:24 am

Postby Blerv » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:54 pm

JNewell wrote:Please, may we return to speaking about knives, steel, and related topics??? :(

Seriously guys, lets lock and burn this thread or simply walk away. Treat it like the bubonic plague (and no, that's not a racial or political reference FYI). It simply can't be saved.

The sad thing is the topic itself was such a basic question. It's not a topic of "your opinion" but rather a statement of fact:

CPM-S30v - Premium
CPM-S90v/ZDP, etc - Exotic

So the first two pages talked about steel and the rest was hyperbole, chest pounding, challenges, politics, crying, forced apologies?

That's what you get when you give a soap box and a microphone to the insane. :p
:spyder: Blake :spyder:

nozh2002
Member
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:56 pm

Postby nozh2002 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:59 pm

Michael Janich wrote:I didn't repeat an attack. I provided a concise reference to the historical event for those who were unfamiliar with it. In doing so, I preserved the salient elements of your post that were relevant to the topic at hand. Since the redacted portion of your post violated the rules of the forum, I showed you an appropriate level of courtesy by preserving the remainder of its content.

If you have an important thought or idea that you want to share on these forums, please post in a manner consistent with the forum rules. Your second post on Mr. Kruschev did that. Your first did not.

Mike
So you admitted now that you did not "summarize" my post but rather "provided a concise reference to the historical event" which is exactly how I was attacked originally based on my national origin.

Do not you think initially it was as well "reference" which has nothing to do with matter of discussion? But providing this reference was not appropriate in this context.

You show everybody only that you are on the attacker side. You did not correct attacker in any way.

Now you are enjoying you position making this arrogant remarks like - "I showed you an appropriate level". This is even better.

Vassili.

User avatar
TazKristi
Member
Posts: 3045
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:00 pm
Location: Golden, CO

Postby TazKristi » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:27 pm

Vassili,
Please consider this your Official Notice from me, the Administrator of this Forum, to stop. Your questions have been addressed and the answers are not going to change. This thread should have been a great discussion about two high performance steels and it has deteriorated beyond anything I can appropriately describe without breaking a few forum rules myself.

A valid discussion about CPM-S30V and ZDP-189 can now be found here, http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45437. Please try to keep the new thread on topic.

Kristi
There is nothing more important than this one day.

nozh2002
Member
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:56 pm

Postby nozh2002 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:28 pm

TazKristi wrote:Vassili,
Please consider this your Official Notice from me, the Administrator of this Forum, to stop. Your questions have been addressed and the answers are not going to change. This thread should have been a great discussion about two high performance steels and it has deteriorated beyond anything I can appropriately describe without breaking a few forum rules myself.

A valid discussion about CPM-S30V and ZDP-189 can now be found here, http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45437. Please try to keep the new thread on topic.

Kristi
My question was not addressed, I do not see apologies, instead Janich as "Spyderco Special Project Coordinator" continues to demonstrate disrespect and arrogance toward me. And so Spyderco.

I am leaving this forum now. I would not advice anybody to go here. I would not support Spyderco myself in any way.

Good luck.
Vassili.

kurt6652
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:07 am

Postby kurt6652 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:10 pm

I am glad you have decided to leave the forum, now everyone can sleep better. Life will continue without you and your bullying and self important posts. Thanks Spyderco for not giving in to his demands of an apology, when it was He that was at fault.

Nederspyder
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:55 pm

Postby Nederspyder » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:43 pm

:p


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: archangel, benben, bouhunter, DTPrime, JMM, jpm2, JustinB, Majestic-12 [Bot], prndltech, root, SDCowboy, Sumdumguy, Theldraskien and 40 guests