S30V vs. ZDP 189

[yosemite]

A factor could be ZDP's ungodly level of Chromium. It's got a ton of it.

What would Chromium do apart from making it more hardenable?

[TBob]

What would Chromium do apart from making it more hardenable?

Makes it resistant to corrosion and staining.

[yosemite]

Makes it resistant to corrosion and staining.

Blerv mentioned it as argument for why it could be less toothy. I'm trying to understand how that could be.

On an unrelated note, do you guys know why many Spyderco knives have a large gap from the cutting blade to the handle, often with an extra grip on the steel? I compared the Sage to a Benchmade Griptilian mini in a local store today and the later is much smaller and lighter but has the same length of cutting blade. I don't see a shorter blade as an advantage unless that extra grip has a goo use. Also, whence the thickness of the blades, 3 mm? Is this mostly for durability of the blade?

[nozh2002]

What are the pros and cons of these two steels and how do they compare.

CPM S30V is US made by Crucible entry level PM steel which does not perform well, it was pushed very hard to be on the market 7 years ago as a replacement of CPM S60V (which was really good), but it is hard to hide for so many years average edge retention - it is clear now that even CATRA tests recently made public in "Knife Illustrated" for Oct (it was not published for 7 years before) show average results.

However even now you may hear some echo of that old push we see 7 years ago - some continue to repeat this mantra - "CPM S30V - superstar".

ZDP189 is premium steel - one of the best on the market now (was made available by Spyderco). It require good heat treatment and unfortunately Spyderco in Japan time to time fail to provide one - recent example Mule ZDP189 when some part of blades were overhardened and so taken off the market. As well as Japanese fit and finish not always perfect - like uneven grinds on Walker ZDP189 etc...

Bottom line - with CPM S30V you will have for sure average results, with ZDP 189 you may get very lucky or may not.

Thanks, Vassili.

[ChrisR]

On an unrelated note, do you guys know why many Spyderco knives have a large gap from the cutting blade to the handle, often with an extra grip on the steel?

I think you are talking about the ricasso area (the unsharpened base of a blade, near the handle) which is shaped underneath into a finger choil (a place to locate your leading finger) and the jimping, which gives extra grip?

Basically a good choil provides a better hold when doing tasks that require precision - in SLIPITs it also prevents the knife folding onto the fingers by accident - a really useful safeguard. The jimping just gives a more solid and confident grip that stops your fingers sliding off the knife - or worse, stops them sliding forward onto the blade.

I am a big fan of choils and jimping and they are well worth the extra blade length and steel :)

[ChrisR]

Thanks for the responses! What exactly makes the S30V "toothier", on a molecular level?

My understanding is that on a microscopic level (not molecular - too small) when you examine the steel it is a jumble of different crystalline elements. Modern steels start with Iron and a dash of Carbon but alloy steels also contain carbides of Chromium, Vanadium and Molybdenum that add hardness or rust-resistance, depending on the various percentages.

In the olden days the quality of alloy steels was not very reliable because during the forging process the different components could be distributed unevenly throughout the steel slab - the CPM process helped massively by ensuring a very even distribution of carbides and a uniform quality of steel.

I guess any toothiness on a blade edge will be due to the structure of the steel at a microscopic/crystalline level where the different carbides and their different properties create a microscopically jagged edge.

But I am relatively new to steels so I might be wrong :)

[00max00]

Bottom line - with CPM S30V you will have for sure average results, with ZDP 189 you may get very lucky or may not.

Thanks, Vassili.

Average results? By what standard?

[yosemite]

Average results? By what standard?

Perhaps he/she means edge holding capabilities? I'm wondering this: wouldn't one expect that the more toothy the edge because of microscopic structure, the faster they go dull because abrasion has teeth to grab on to and tear out?

If there is such an inverse proportionality of edge retention and cutting sharpness, it seems like it would be hard to argue for e.g. ZDP over S30V or the other way around, since some people may just prefer the better cutting edge of e.g. S30V even if they have to sharpen more often than with a ZDP knife?

One curious thing about what's been said so far is that ZDP also has various alloy additions to it...

[Blerv]

When I referred to Chromium being a possible factor I meant exactly that. A "factor" not the "reason". I mainly picked it out because it has 20% and S30v has 16% which is a large difference.

Truth being ZDP is a proprietary formula. They know the recipe and heat treat and could very well have a different method than Crucible.

Me trying to figure out why they are different on a molecular structure would be akin to me helping a neurosurgeon complete a procedure.

S30v is a great steel. ZDP is a great steel too. Buy the knife that you want and get the steel it comes with or the sprint/optional steel if it's available. Being that reprofiling and super alloys are over the head of 99% of the buying demographic (myself included) I don't think it really matters. I'll take a good treat of AUS-8 or 440c (Spyderco plz!) to some gimmicky Tacti-knife ground by a lobotomized lab chimp any day.

Quite honestly, factory sharp is like new car smell. It goes away eventually. Still, you want that dang smell if you pay the money. :)

[kawr]

CPM S30V is US made by Crucible entry level PM steel which does not perform well, it was pushed very hard to be on the market 7 years ago as a replacement of CPM S60V (which was really good), but it is hard to hide for so many years average edge retention - it is clear now that even CATRA tests recently made public in "Knife Illustrated" for Oct (it was not published for 7 years before) show average results.

However even now you may hear some echo of that old push we see 7 years ago - some continue to repeat this mantra - "CPM S30V - superstar".

ZDP189 is premium steel - one of the best on the market now (was made available by Spyderco). It require good heat treatment and unfortunately Spyderco in Japan time to time fail to provide one - recent example Mule ZDP189 when some part of blades were overhardened and so taken off the market. As well as Japanese fit and finish not always perfect - like uneven grinds on Walker ZDP189 etc...

Bottom line - with CPM S30V you will have for sure average results, with ZDP 189 you may get very lucky or may not.

Thanks, Vassili.

Not everything is about maximum edge retention... If that were the case then every manufacterer would use S90V, ZDP 189, S60V, etc. S30V was a good comprimise of edge retention for much better toughness and corrosion resistance. The purpose of S30V was never to have maximum edge retention but for an all around hard use super steel. Also steels like S90V and S60V are a huge pain to machine. Dont force feed your ignorant philosophy of steels because not everything is based around edge retention. There are people out there who would rather use their knives in real world applications and not just to use in controlled experiments cutting thousands of silica cards to measure performance :rolleyes: .

[nozh2002]

Average results? By what standard?

By CATRA test which is standard for industry. By my own tests, by quite a number of reports on forums.

Thanks, Vassili.

[nozh2002]

Not everything is about maximum edge retention... If that were the case then every manufacterer would use S90V, ZDP 189, S60V, etc. S30V was a good comprimise of edge retention for much better toughness and corrosion resistance. The purpose of S30V was never to have maximum edge retention but for an all around hard use super steel. Also steels like S90V and S60V are a huge pain to machine. Dont force feed your ignorant philosophy of steels because not everything is based around edge retention. There are people out there who would rather use their knives in real world applications and not just to use in controlled experiments cutting thousands of silica cards to measure performance :rolleyes: .

Do not give me this loser talk - "There is always compromise" - not in real world! There is always better solution and this is why civilization is moving forward so fast lately.

ZDP-189 is as tough as CPM S30V same was for CPM S60V. It may be under some pressure which knife never face some variations in numbers, but for real use no difference. Of course I am talking about properly heat treated ZDP-189 - not overhardened or something.

This songs about CPM S30V toughness is smoke to hide its average performance on what is really important for knife - edge holding.

Only compromise here - easy to machine and heat treat. From customer point of view - ZDP is superior from any angle.

CPM S30V was huge step back from CPM S60V.

Thanks, Vassili.

[The Deacon]

Do not give me this loser talk - "There is always compromise" - not in real world! There is always better solution and this is why civilization is moving forward so fast lately.

ZDP-189 is as tough as CPM S30V same was for CPM S60V. It may be under some pressure which knife never face some variations in numbers, but for real use no difference. Of course I am talking about properly heat treated ZDP-189 - not overhardened or something.

This songs about CPM S30V toughness is smoke to hide its average performance on what is really important for knife - edge holding.

Only compromise here - easy to machine and heat treat. From customer point of view - ZDP is superior from any angle.

CPM S30V was huge step back from CPM S60V.

Thanks, Vassili.

:rolleyes:

[dj moonbat]

Do not give me this loser talk - "There is always compromise" - not in real world!

Please tell me you're banging your shoe on the table while you type these things.

[Blerv]

Life is about compromising.

Not necessarily "not trying", or "losing" but rather a pendulum. When pushing for extremes there are very few products that are the best in every category. If they do get close to this, price is the downfall.

All I want is a SUV that is as fast as a supercar, reliable and economical as a Prius, and priced like at $8,000. Is that too much to ask!?! :D

[ChrisR]

I dunno ... I thought I made some good points and now they're lost in an argument about which steel is best :D

[dj moonbat]

I dunno ... I thought I made some good points and now they're lost in an argument about which steel is best :D

This can't be the first time you've seen that happen on the internets.

[ChrisR]

This can't be the first time you've seen that happen on the internets.

As I said on another thread, the easiest way to start an argument on a knife forum is to ask which steel is best :D And the best bit ... everyone is right, because the best one is the one you like best - personal choice.

[dj moonbat]

As I said on another thread, the easiest way to start an argument on a knife forum is to ask which steel is best :D And the best bit ... everyone is right, because the best one is the one you like best - personal choice.

On the geek websites, the holy wars are fought over which text editor is best. (The One True Answer is emacs. )

[The Mastiff]

CPM S30V was huge step back from CPM S60V

S30V wasn't ever a replacement for S60V as far as intentions on crucibles part. S90V was the replacement for S60V for the knife industry, which was only a small part of their business before the bankruptcy. I don't believe that S60V was designed as a knife steel. S90V, I'm unsure about.

S30V was designed to fill a different niche , and was intended as a knife steel. .