Sal - I invite you to comment on my issue

[The Deacon]

Manufacturers have to draw a line between what constitutes a "defect in workmanship" and minor, insignificant imperfections. A blade which is ground slightly off center would be considered by any reasonable person to be a insignificant imperfection since it does not affect the functioning of the knife or make it less comfortable or safe to use. It is not a glaring blemish which one will see or feel every time the knife is handled. The lockup, while somewhat deeper than most people would consider "ideal" is certainly safe and solid. I've seen knives with better, and knives with worse and, AFAIK, no manufacturer guarantees that every knife will lock at the point a given user feels to be ideal.

[JNewell]

Honestly the lock is more concerning. All three of MCM's examples lock up perfect. That's what I've come to expect from a Spyderco made Liner Lock.

The following really isn't directed at you, just a general comment, but your last sentence made a convenient place in the tread to tie into.

There is (as far as I can tell) absolutely no standard for lockbar/blade tang engagement on linerlock and framelock knives. I have examples from many manufacturers and they are all over the place, even from the same manufacturer. If you want to drive yourself really crazy, spend a few hours reading the endless threads on this at BF in the CRK subforum. Personally, I think most knife buyers have two very unrealistic and inconsistent expectations for these knives.

First, they want the knife to last forever without any need for service or replacement, so they want to see minimal engagement, since this would allow for wear over time.

Second, they want (or should want - I actually think few think hard enough about this) a secure lockup, which requires significant lockbar/tang engagement.

And, as a bonus observation, people expect consistency, knife to knife. If you consider the geometry and tolerances involved, this just isn't possible. Custom makers seldom if ever achieve this. Semi-custom makers like CRK certainly never achieve this. A full-production company like Spyderco or Benchmade is never going to achieve this. And, it's just not necessary.

If the issues with framelocks and linerlocks bother us, there are many other locks that are equally or more secure and easy to use.

[224477]

Guys, Sal replied, and I think offerred a generous solution for huugh`s problem.
Dont you think the rest is just beating a dead horse? :rolleyes:

As for me, I am eagerly awaiting a design made of ZDP and CF that I would like, design wise. The materials are amazing. Caly 3.5 would be great candidate for that.

[The Deacon]

Guys, Sal replied, and I think offerred a generous solution for huugh`s problem.
Dont you think the rest is just beating a dead horse? :rolleyes:

Actually, no. It serves to let Sal know that not everyone has unreasonable expectations of perfection.

[A.P.F.]

Actually, no. It serves to let Sal know that not everyone has unreasonable expectations of perfection.

Exactly.

That said, I personally would find the grind centering to be a bit outside of my comfort zone, but not enough to call the company on, as the issues presented have zero effect on the function of the knife.

Where the actions of the OP are concerned, airing his grievances in two public forums is the equivalent of standing in the middle of a retailers store and loudly proclaiming to each customer entering how he has been wronged by the company. Such actions are not only rude, but also demonstrate poor form. Any reasonable person knows that if you don't get satisfaction from a clerk, you ask for the manager. When you repeatedly run into the same problems from the same 'difficult' customer, often the wisest business decision is to gently refer him to your competition.

I have dealt with the public in a retail setting for almost 40 years and have seen it all. From my experience, Sal has settled the issue in a most diplomatic and polite manner, for which he continues to garner my respect.

[Habit Zero]

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing this matter. It's what forums are for, after all.

I myself am a perfectionist, and so I've noticed as well uneven grinds on knives and such, but I've come to get over it, as it's not something that ultimately matters (I'm a very laid-back perfectionist :P).

I also don't feel like the amount which liner/framelock locks up is of concern if it's solid. However, on huugh's knife, the pictures seem to prove that the knife is engaging at different points, which to me seems a bid odd. As Sal himself said, no knife is perfect, production or custom - they've all got human hands involved and they will have minor flaws, often simply cosmetic. I don't know of huugh's history on any of the forums, but the past does not negate the present.

[dbcad]

This thread has given me justification to buy one of the last Walkers at KC. I'm sure it will be great for me :)

When I can I'll buy another Toyota too :D

No other knives have excited me like :spyder: 's

Charlie

[dskmanch]

IMO huugh - you are out of order. from your pictures i can't see anything that would make me the slightest bit unhappy with the knife - in fact, i'd buy it off you in a heartbeat. and don't think i tolerate rubbish tools. i have a few knives in my collection and the vast majority are spyderco. there's not one that i have any issue with.

now if you're unhappy with the knife, then that's OK - but why not just return it to the dealer you bought it off and get a refund? why splash it across two forums???

so not only did your post fail to tarnish spyderco's reputation in my eyes, but sal's response actually improved it!

[JNewell]

That said, I personally would find the grind centering to be a bit outside of my comfort zone, but not enough to call the company on, as the issues presented have zero effect on the function of the knife.

I don't have a point of view on this, but I am smiling, because I think I remember a long-ago head of GM saying to someone who pointed out that the left side of some vehicle didn't match the right side, "people can only see one side at a time." :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[nozh2002]

Here are my Walkers (again)
Best sub 3" $100.00 knifes I own.
I'm not just talking Spyderco either.
CF, ZDP, super thin grind. Smooth, Light, Great feel, No complaints. Zippo, Zero, Nada.
IMHO this is a new classic. The one they now have to beat, and others will be judged against. Are the grinds perfect? Perfect enough for me! What slicers!

So far I saw huugh knife, and those three. 3 out of 4 (75%) have grind line not near center of blade. It does not looks like some isolated case - like bad apple. And to me there is no such thing as "perfect enough" and this is why I like Spyderco.

Also I just check all my Spyderco collection - all has perfect grind line in the center. Both Colorado and Japan made (however I did not buy too much lately).

I think we should stop pretending like there are no problems with quality here! I am sorry I am Russian and for me to know what is going on is more important then to be nice and polite to one of my favorite manufacturer.

I really surprised by Sal replay. I hope he'll comment on this in his usual stile, which I respect a lot.

Thanks, Vassili.

[Water Bug]

There is (as far as I can tell) absolutely no standard for lockbar/blade tang engagement on linerlock and framelock knives. I have examples from many manufacturers and they are all over the place, even from the same manufacturer. If you want to drive yourself really crazy, spend a few hours reading the endless threads on this at BF in the CRK subforum.

Watching a DVD on Chris Reeve Knives, for their Sebenza they do note that they try to achieve a 50% to 75% engagement of the lockbar to the tang. They showed how their QC staff use special inserts to measure the lock engagement. The insert is placed between the engaged lockbar and the inside of the non-lockbar handle.

There's a "50%" engagement insert to ensure that the lockbar is catching halfway across the tang to achieve a positive lockup. If the engagement is less then 50%, the knife goes back for adjustments. Next, the QC inspector sticks in the "75%" engagement insert to make sure the lockbar does not catch greater than 75% across the tang to ensure adequate wear of the lock. Again, the knife goes back for adjustment as needed.

Regarding one member's comment about the the lock engaging at different points along the tang, that may be happening since the knife is still new and not broken in. I have new liner and RIL framelock folders (to include those made by Spyderco and Emerson) where the lock initially engages at one point on the tang, but then slips a touch for a more solid engagement when the knife is used. After opening and closing the knife a few times, the lock eventually wears enough so that it consistently engages at one point.

[JNewell]

Watching a DVD on Chris Reeve Knives, for their Sebenza they do note that they try to achieve a 50% to 75% engagement of the lockbar to the tang. They showed how their QC staff use special inserts to measure the lock engagement. The insert is placed between the engaged lockbar and the inside of the non-lockbar handle.

There's a "50%" engagement insert to ensure that the lockbar is catching halfway across the tang to achieve a positive lockup. If the engagement is less then 50%, the knife goes back for adjustments. Next, the QC inspector sticks in the "75%" engagement insert to make sure the lockbar does not catch greater than 75% across the tang to ensure adequate wear of the lock. Again, the knife goes back for adjustment as needed.

Regarding one member's comment about the the lock engaging at different points along the tang, that may be happening since the knife is still new and not broken in. I have new liner and RIL framelock folders (to include those made by Spyderco and Emerson) where the lock initially engages at one point on the tang, but then slips a touch for a more solid engagement when the knife is used. After opening and closing the knife a few times, the lock eventually wears enough so that it consistently engages at one point.

If you read back into the archives at BF, you'll see that engagement on CRK knives varies from 20% to 90%, and that is a very different sort of operation than Spyderco or Benchmade.

[MCM]

"like bad apple"

Its too bad everyone who comments on these has not had the opportunity to hold/use one.

IMO, this is one of the best apples Spyderco has ever produced.

All I can say is, I got mine!





Just gotta love the Internet. :rolleyes:

[mqqn]

Hi folks -

Ultimately it is the consumer that decides what is acceptable quality control.

If enough people received knives with a perceived flaw (and it only really matters if the CUSTOMER perceives there is a flaw), then those customers should send the product back to the seller. Those sellers should send those products back to the manufacturer (or get credit from the manufacturer). At some point the manufacturer will knows that they need to prevent products with that flaw from going out the door.

I personally would not be 100% satisfied with a blade that was ground as unevenly as the OP's example.
[edit] - actually - after going back and looking at the op's pictures, I would not have been that bothered about the grind on his blade, it is not as off-centered as I originally though, but it still could have been better [/edit]

To attempt to put it into perspective, if you bought a new Corvette or Mustang, and it had a big dent in the middle of the hood, would you be happy? Satisfied? The car will still do what it was designed to do, it just did not pass a little quality control check at the end of the line. I'll bet there are a few of you that would not be 100% satisfied.

I see this as the same deal, and I don't buy into the "it's just a tool" thinking, this is a gentleman's folder from one of the most respected and trusted names in cutlery. I think the machining of the blade grinds could be improved in this example. Precision machining of metal is not supposed to be something that is done "by eye" in my experience.

However, I would have just sent the knife back to the place I purchased it from rather than get on several forums and post my dissatisfaction with the knife.

Perfection is one thing, consistency and adherence to a specification are quite another. I should think that a manufacturer of qualify knives should be able to hold some pretty tight tolerances - perhaps even build a jig for grinding the bevels even on a low production item.

All of that said, all the OP needed to do was send the knife back to where he bought it - if enough people did that the message would be clear.

None of this would prevent me from buying a Spyderco product as Spyderco seems to me to be a very good source of great knives.

best regards

mqqn

[Water Bug]

If you read back into the archives at BF, you'll see that engagement on CRK knives varies from 20% to 90%, and that is a very different sort of operation than Spyderco or Benchmade.

Actually, my post is based on what Chris Reeve and his staff say the lock engagement percentage on the Sebenza is supposed to be before the knife leaves his shop.

In The Exquisite Blade, The Legend of Chris Reeve Knives, Vol. 1, Disc 2, Chris Reeve himself says the lock engagement on the Sebenza must be more than half way across to ensure safety. So, as far as I'm concerned, if Mr. Reeve says it's gotta be at least 50% engagement on the lock, that's good enough for me.

In addition, two of his employees, Marshal Hoalst and Lisa L’Eveque-Hague, are featured on the DVD inspecting the Sebenzas, and both say the lock engagement for the Sebenza must be between 50% and 75%. Marshal is the one shown using the special insert to ensure the percentage of lock engagement is within Chris Reeve's specifications. So, if Mr. Reeve's employees, who he trusts with his products, say the lock engagement on the Sebenza must be between 50% and 75%, that's good enough for me.

[JNewell]

Actually, my post is based on what Chris Reeve and his staff say the lock engagement percentage on the Sebenza is supposed to be before the knife leaves his shop.

In The Exquisite Blade, The Legend of Chris Reeve Knives, Vol. 1, Disc 2, Chris Reeve himself says the lock engagement on the Sebenza must be more than half way across to ensure safety. So, as far as I'm concerned, if Mr. Reeve says it's gotta be at least 50% engagement on the lock, that's good enough for me.

In addition, two of his employees, Marshal Hoalst and Lisa L’Eveque-Hague, are featured on the DVD inspecting the Sebenzas, and both say the lock engagement for the Sebenza must be between 50% and 75%. Marshal is the one shown using the special insert to ensure the percentage of lock engagement is within Chris Reeve's specifications. So, if Mr. Reeve's employees, who he trusts with his products, say the lock engagement on the Sebenza must be between 50% and 75%, that's good enough for me.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but you're not listening to what I'm saying. CRK knives come out of the box all over the ballpark, quite a few less than 50%, some up to 90%. And none of this is a problem but there is a continuing stream of anxious posts in the CRK forum at BF.

[Water Bug]

I understand exactly what you're saying, but you're not listening to what I'm saying. CRK knives come out of the box all over the ballpark, quite a few less than 50%, some up to 90%. And none of this is a problem but there is a continuing stream of anxious posts in the CRK forum at BF.

Ah, okay... my apparent bad. In that case, those people can worry about it all they want, if that's what they want to do. I'll just enjoy my :spyder: s, Chris Reeves, and other knives and use them as they're intended to be used.

[JNewell]

Ah, okay... my apparent bad. In that case, those people can worry about it all they want, if that's what they want to do. I'll just enjoy my :spyder: s, Chris Reeves, and other knives and use them as they're intended to be used.

Amen to that, for sure! And Spyderco...and Emerson...and Benchmade...oops... :eek: :D

[sal]

I don't mind discussion. We all learn. As mentioned, that is the purpose of the forum.

Vassili,

As it turned out all of the knives were a little bit off in the grind line. I don't think it is a QC issue, but a craftsman/experience/grinding issue. With such a small amount of knives being made, there was no opportunity to "go upstream". We received the knives from the maker.

We will take back Huugh's knife and refund his money. If Huugh is not pleased with our product and/or service, we can apologise, and try to make amends. We cannot please all.

I still mainatin the knife is a beautiful piece. Well designed, refined, made with exotic materials at a very high quality level, at a very fair price........ although imperfect.

In developing trust, The goal is to be consistent as the sun and transparent as the air. We do our best.

sal

[catamount]

Mine has an uneven grind, and I still love it. It is my favorite sub 3" :spyder:

Maybe this imperfection will get more of them out of the safe and into a pocket? That's where this knife deserves to be, IMO.