ZDP-189 Mule Team Update

#1

We regret that we will not be able to ship any additional MT04P, ZDP-189 Mules. Our research indicates that the problem goes beyond the heat treat. We are unable to re-temper the knives as we had originally thought. They are not repairable and we will not be shipping any additional pieces. We’ve done extensive testing on both the folders and the fixed blades with ZDP-189 and found that the problem is only in the fixed blades and that the makeup was different.

If you have an MT04P without any issues we recommend that you keep your knife. If you have encountered issues (such as breaking, cracking, etc.) please contact our Warranty & Repair department. Since we cannot replace the knife, we will issue you a credit for the original MSRP of $79.95.

The Mule Team is a project based upon the desire to learn more about the steel and its performance. This scenario, although not planned, has certainly provided some valuable information into one of our industry’s most exotic steels.

We appreciate your continued support of the Mule Team project and your understanding regarding this challenge.

Thanx much!

Donut · #2

I have one, and this is good to know.

Thanks!

JLS · #3

Glad I got the second one that I did.

Any chance I can buy some "scrap" blades? I do realize the inherent risk, but it is still a nice piece of steel if utilized properly.

I also want to thank Spyderco for doing the Mule Team project and being upfront about things like this. I appreciate the honesty and it only improves my opinion of a company that makes a fantastic product.

JNewell · #4

Interesting update - thank you, Taz. :spyder:

monsterdog · #5

I had sent in one of mine and got this news a couple of days ago. I'm glad I kept the second one.

On that note, looking forward to the next Mule!

Sequimite · #6

Taz,

Do you know if these will show up at the factory second sale?

When you say "the problem is only in the fixed blades and that the makeup was different", what do you mean by "makeup"?

Might there be another Mule run with different "makeup"?

Thanks.

Greg

defenestrate · #7

I would guess that a different makeup means that the Mule run was from a bad batch of steel, or one that had so much of some of the hardening alloy that it was overly brittle. I don't know if ZDP-189 is an evolving mixture as the ingredients are top secret, but I'm sure that whatever info can be divulged will come out in time. I am curious about this myself. Always interested to learn about what makes these steels the way they are.

Sequimite · #8

defenestrate wrote:I would guess that a different makeup means that the Mule run was from a bad batch of steel, or one that had so much of some of the hardening alloy that it was overly brittle. I don't know if ZDP-189 is an evolving mixture as the ingredients are top secret, but I'm sure that whatever info can be divulged will come out in time. I am curious about this myself. Always interested to learn about what makes these steels the way they are.

That was my best guess too, that the alloy's components had incorrect proportions. That would increase the odds of a do over for this Mule with the correct formulation.

cckw · #9

JLS wrote:Glad I got the second one that I did.

Any chance I can buy some "scrap" blades? I do realize the inherent risk, but it is still a nice piece of steel if utilized properly.

I also want to thank Spyderco for doing the Mule Team project and being upfront about things like this. I appreciate the honesty and it only improves my opinion of a company that makes a fantastic product.

I too would like to have a couple to tamper with. But due to the more slippery folks out there, I am guessing they won't risk letting you and I mess with these. Some JA would put them on Flea-bay and not disclose the issue and cause harm to Spyderco's name and possibly cause an injury.

defenestrate · #10

Sequimite wrote:That was my best guess too, that the alloy's components had incorrect proportions. That would increase the odds of a do over for this Mule with the correct formulation.

Right on. Good call. I would be interested to hear about that, to be sure!

defenestrate · #11

Might I also add, it's really friggin' cool, some obstacles notwithstanding, to be able to involved in the Mule Team project? Kinda makes me feel like part of the R&D department (which is part of the idea, by my understanding). That we get some rather nice general-purpose fixed blade knives (once we have handles on them, of course) out of exotic high-performance steels for an excellent price. Who could complain about that? :D

JNewell · #12

defenestrate wrote:Might I also add, it's really friggin' cool, some obstacles notwithstanding, to be able to involved in the Mule Team project? Kinda makes me feel like part of the R&D department (which is part of the idea, by my understanding). That we get some rather nice general-purpose fixed blade knives (once we have handles on them, of course) out of exotic high-performance steels for an excellent price. Who could complain about that? :D

Yes, and I will say that watching this and the Bushcraft really increases my appreciation for the total culture of this company, ranging from being willing to take some chances to standing up when things go wrong. :spyder:

defenestrate · #13

JNewell wrote:Yes, and I will say that watching this and the Bushcraft really increases my appreciation for the total culture of this company, ranging from being willing to take some chances to standing up when things go wrong. :spyder:

Completely agreed. I want to get a Bushcraft just to support the gesture. Well, that I still see them as a work of art doesn't hurt. Selling them like this at this price means that anyone who is into bushcraft can have a world class example with a couple of minor defects for the cost of something far more mundane, and I can't imagine the bushcraft crowd not gobbling them up. I just hope I have enough money saved up to get one before they're all sold out.

Sequimite · #14

defenestrate wrote:I just hope I have enough money saved up to get one before they're all sold out.

I bought two of the Bushcraft UK, but one is for a friend who is currently skint. I'm hoping to cobble a few dollars together to buy at least one more.

As I was also broke when the ZDP-189 Mules came out, I'm hoping there become available as seconds so that I can buy one and maintain a complete set of Mules.

ChapmanPreferred · #15

Very sorry to read this about the ZDP 189 Mule team.

MCM · #16

I have 2 NIB, trying to decide what to do........
Will probably fail conservatively and do nothing. :)
Kinda cool to have a blade this hard to one day play with.
I doubt it was a bad batch, just too hard for this application. (Read as too large sized piece of ZDP)
What was the final RC #?

JNewell · #17

LOL, same issue here. Three, NIB, trying to figure out what to do...

MCM wrote:I have 2 NIB, trying to decide what to do........
Will probably fail conservatively and do nothing. :)
Kinda cool to have a blade this hard to one day play with.
I doubt it was a bad batch, just too hard for this application. (Read as too large sized piece of ZDP)
What was the final RC #?

yuraelektra · #18

Thanks for the update, TazKristi!

JLS · #19

My first one tested at 67 HRC average.

I haven't unboxed the second to take it to work for testing yet. If I ever do, I'll report on that.

nozh2002 · #20

TazKristi wrote:We regret that we will not be able to ship any additional MT04P, ZDP-189 Mules. Our research indicates that the problem goes beyond the heat treat. We are unable to re-temper the knives as we had originally thought. They are not repairable and we will not be shipping any additional pieces. We’ve done extensive testing on both the folders and the fixed blades with ZDP-189 and found that the problem is only in the fixed blades and that the makeup was different.

If you have an MT04P without any issues we recommend that you keep your knife. If you have encountered issues (such as breaking, cracking, etc.) please contact our Warranty & Repair department. Since we cannot replace the knife, we will issue you a credit for the original MSRP of $79.95.

The Mule Team is a project based upon the desire to learn more about the steel and its performance. This scenario, although not planned, has certainly provided some valuable information into one of our industry’s most exotic steels.

We appreciate your continued support of the Mule Team project and your understanding regarding this challenge.

Thanx much!

How can I check if my blades OK or not?

Thanks, Vassili.