Carpenter CTS-XHP Steel

[unit]

I do not want merge data from different testers. Any data will be very valuable. It does not really matter was it tested exactly same way or not. It does not really matter if results will be same or not. If it is not same - then there is chance to improve testing (mine or other). But what I usually hear - how dare are you question my favorite steel! - in one or other form.

Problem is that there is not data on edge holding at all! Except feelings, which I was very well mistaken with myself. Before this testing I thought (based on feelings, which were result of reading knife forums mostly) that best of the best should be CPM 10V as well as it's stainless modification CPM S90V - turns out abrasive resistance is not edge holding and test results show this (BTW both steel show almost same results). And I did not even tested 1095 until I see this video, because this is cheap simple carbon steel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSrlvqrZQKY

It was huge surprise for me. It holds edge better way then all those super modern high vanadium abrasive resistant steels.

In result we have all those theories that toughness is good for edge holding, hardness is good for edge holding, abrasive resistance is good for edge holding and being made by company X is good for edge holding etc...

But honestly Knife Science is not yet written. In terms of scientific method first stage - observation or data collecting is not yet even started - no basis so far for any theories because there is nothing to analyze.

Thanks, Vassili.

I agree and regardless of what your findings conjure up in terms of arguments or acceptance, they seem to generate conversation and perhaps will result in more people willing to test in some manner or another (which, as you say, is a very good thing).

I would point out that my preliminary findings indicate some counter intuitive (in some cases) results. Based on this, it is my gut feeling that many users will conclude a different favorite based on their expectations, uses, and preferences....I think this is why the topic is so appealing to me.

[sal]

AAAAaaaaahh,

The joys of "real world testing"

Actually, this type of conversation shows that there is both interest and thought. Two valuable topics in this type of experiment.

sal

[nozh2002]

AAAAaaaaahh,

The joys of "real world testing"

Actually, this type of conversation shows that there is both interest and thought. Two valuable topics in this type of experiment.

sal

Sal, please, more CTS-XHP knives... Military, Mule, etc.

Actually I would love to see you switch all US production models to it from CPM S30V (and Japan as well if possible).

Can you tell a bit more about is it mass production friendly?
I may think that it may be cheaper then CPM S30V both in manufacturer price and in production - it is relatively old steel (known as 440XH).

Thanks, Vassili.

[sal]

Hi Vassili.

We're not likely to switch "all production" to any one steel. I like the different flavors available. We have 5 or 6 more Carpenter steels to "play with".

We are also loyal to Crucible. They make excellent product and they've always been good to work with.

sal

[RazorSharp86]

Hi Vassili.

We're not likely to switch "all production" to any one steel. I like the different flavors available. We have 5 or 6 more Carpenter steels to "play with".

We are also loyal to Crucible. They make excellent product and they've always been good to work with.

sal

Can you please name a couple of other steels you're looking at from Carpenter's??
How do they generally compare to Crucible's stuff??

I'm loving CTS-XHP, and also would love to see more knives made with that steel. Though I must confess, new steels from Spyderco is UBER. Never even once did I get disappointed from a Spyderco steel. Whenever Spyderco is running a new production steel, I always know i can trust it to be great and many times, I expect it to exceed my expectations :spyder: :spyder: :spyder:

[The Mastiff]

Razorsharp asked?

Can you please name a couple of other steels you're looking at from Carpenter's??

Earlier in this thread Sal wrote this. Your answers should be there. Carpenters are the CTS steels.

Hi Catamount,

CTS-XHP will be available in a Manix2 Sprint model soon.

CTS-BD1 will be available as a Mule Team.

CTS-20CP will be available as a Mule Team.

While XHP is not as corrosion resistant as H1, it is considerably better than D-2, while still giving a good turn of performance.

It is not a rival for H1. It is a rival for D-2. It is a stainless D-2.

You will see more CTS steels in our future, along with Crucible, Hitachi, Takefu, Myodo and some others we are talking to.

The CTS family of blade steels is listed in the new 2010 Spyderco steel chart.

sal

Carpenter CTS steels : http://www.carpentertechnology.com/what ... px?id=3684

Maybe you can read more, argue less, and be a bit slower to rebuke others. Just a thought. Regards, Joe L. / Raleigh

[The Mastiff]

The CTS 20CP looks pretty interesting. One can't help notice it's in the class of heavyweights with S90V, 10V, A11, etc. A direct comparison with S90V makes me think this has the possibility of slightly stronger edges at thin angles, and possibly a point or so of usable hardness without becoming chippy. It's an interesting steel. Possibility a bit less corrosion resistance than S90V.

I'm looking forward to trying it.

Sal, have you given consideration to trying the B75 and B70? Is the B75 as expensive and long lead time as BG42?

Thanks Sal. Joe

[Metric]

I do not want merge data from different testers. Any data will be very valuable. It does not really matter was it tested exactly same way or not. It does not really matter if results will be same or not. If it is not same - then there is chance to improve testing (mine or other). But what I usually hear - how dare are you question my favorite steel! - in one or other form.

Problem is that there is not data on edge holding at all! Except feelings, which I was very well mistaken with myself. Before this testing I thought (based on feelings, which were result of reading knife forums mostly) that best of the best should be CPM 10V as well as it's stainless modification CPM S90V - turns out abrasive resistance is not edge holding and test results show this (BTW both steel show almost same results). And I did not even tested 1095 until I see this video, because this is cheap simple carbon steel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSrlvqrZQKY

It was huge surprise for me. It holds edge better way then all those super modern high vanadium abrasive resistant steels.

In result we have all those theories that toughness is good for edge holding, hardness is good for edge holding, abrasive resistance is good for edge holding and being made by company X is good for edge holding etc...

But honestly Knife Science is not yet written. In terms of scientific method first stage - observation or data collecting is not yet even started - no basis so far for any theories because there is nothing to analyze.

Thanks, Vassili.

Excellent and inspiring post. This is what any new science inevitably does -- it overturns previously held ideas (often to the shock of the experimenters themselves), slaughters sacred cows, and upsets almost everyone (the "ban list" comment alone gives me confidence), until it is finally embraced.

There are probably a ton of variables that aren't controlled in Vassili's experiments, but I don't care that much, because I do not intend to over-generalize -- at least *something* is standardized, and we can make *some* statements, based on experiment. Apparently, Spyderco's particular use of XHP is absolutely world-class for edge retention when cutting rope -- I do not know the full implications of this, but it is something I didn't know before, and it seems like an excellent quality to have in a knife!

BTW, I would also really, really like to see the Gayle Bradley tested, but I understand that every experiment is expensive and time consuming.

[sal]

Hi Joe,

We have plans for B75 s well.

I might add as a teaase that Carpenter mixed up a small batch of a "special" B75 that we'll be playing with.

sal

[RazorSharp86]

Razorsharp asked?


Earlier in this thread Sal wrote this. Your answers should be there. Carpenters are the CTS steels.




Carpenter CTS steels : http://www.carpentertechnology.com/what ... px?id=3684

Maybe you can read more, argue less, and be a bit slower to rebuke others. Just a thought. Regards, Joe L. / Raleigh

Gee. Crack my Nut$ a little more. I'm liking it.
I've been following the thread for a while, and forgot that these have been listed. Maybe i need to read more, maybe a book, so I don't forget anymore. Actually, reading would probably make me argue less and be a bit s....l....o....w....e...r..... But nah. I'd rather say what I want without being worried that somebody on the forum is going to judge me.
Sorry guys, but It is what it is. Arguing is in my nature (just like any normal human being's) and sorry, but I can't take it slow with anything. Too young you know.... youth you see, is a darn crazy thing.
Anyway, I'm more curious how these steels compare to some of the other steels Spyderco uses.

[nozh2002]

Maybe you can read more, argue less, and be a bit slower to rebuke others. Just a thought. Regards, Joe L. / Raleigh

Excellent! Well sad.

This is what I like to say myself, but have trouble to put it in English.

However, I like to address it to you.

Do not want to play police here, but why not to join you effort? May be you will join mine and do some formal knife testing too?

Thanks, Vassili.

[The Mastiff]

Hi Joe,

We have plans for B75 s well.

I might add as a teaase that Carpenter mixed up a small batch of a "special" B75 that we'll be playing with.

sal

Thanks Sal. I figured you would have something cooking on the side. I'm looking forward to it. :)

[The Mastiff]

Do not want to play police here, but why not to join you effort? May be you will join mine and do some formal knife testing too?

Thanks, Vassili.

Thanks Vassili. It would be enjoyable but the real truth is I'm limited not only in movement, but in time. I'm skipping a second shoulder surgery on my right shoulder to get either an ankle rebuilt, or have a hip fixed. They are both running neck and neck on which is more of a PITA not only hindering my daily life, but what it takes time and resource wise to have the surgeries done, and rehab from them. I'm not looking forward to either.

I live alone with my mastiff Finn, so being in a body cast laid up in bed for a couple weeks isn't an option right now either.

Thanks for the offer Vassili. Regards. Joe/raleigh

[The Mastiff]

Gee. Crack my Nut$ a little more. I'm liking it.
I've been following the thread for a while, and forgot that these have been listed. Maybe i need to read more, maybe a book, so I don't forget anymore. Actually, reading would probably make me argue less and be a bit s....l....o....w....e...r..... But nah. I'd rather say what I want without being worried that somebody on the forum is going to judge me.
Sorry guys, but It is what it is. Arguing is in my nature (just like any normal human being's) and sorry, but I can't take it slow with anything. Too young you know.... youth you see, is a darn crazy thing.
Anyway, I'm more curious how these steels compare to some of the other steels Spyderco uses.

Razor, The sicilian side of me is pretty headstrong and abrasive. Yeah, quick tempered too. I really can relate to what you are saying.

I'm not always successful, obviously, but I try to keep it out of here. I do it out of respect to Sal , Kristi, and the other forumites who are a bit more well balanced than myself.

There are other forums to argue all I want in. I don't really learn anything at them, but I can speak without caring about being PC, and hurting others feelings.

I've got to say though, it doesn't get better as you get older. In fact, you get grouchier and more direct. I'm just as quick tempered as I was 30 years ago though.

Oh well. :)

[nozh2002]

Thanks Vassili. It would be enjoyable but the real truth is I'm limited not only in movement, but in time. I'm skipping a second shoulder surgery on my right shoulder to get either an ankle rebuilt, or have a hip fixed. They are both running neck and neck on which is more of a PITA not only hindering my daily life, but what it takes time and resource wise to have the surgeries done, and rehab from them. I'm not looking forward to either.

I live alone with my mastiff Finn, so being in a body cast laid up in bed for a couple weeks isn't an option right now either.

Thanks for the offer Vassili. Regards. Joe/raleigh

Sorry, to hear this. Hope you will get back fine. I'll pray for you.

Regards, Vassili.

[kbuzbee]

I'll pray for you.

Me too, Paul. Lots to deal with. Stay strong, Brother!

Ken

[TOMMY00729]

Where can i buy some h-1 steel ?

[The Mastiff]

Thanks Vassili and Ken. I appreciate the thoughts and prayers. Life has it's ups and downs for everybody, and I accept that. Please don't think I was complaining about my life as I feel I've had it easy compared to so many people.

I do admit that when I act like a horses a$$ it's just me and not the stress of my life though. Despite working in law enforcement and corrections for a career I have seen a lot more people I consider good in the world than bad. Quite often they are the quieter ones and when I shut up long enough I hear and see them everywhere. :)

[kbuzbee]

when I shut up long enough I hear and see them everywhere. :)

Amen, Brother! I don't usually go all postal on anyone but I do tend to have a talk/listen ratio of 80 or so :rolleyes: .... You are spot on!

Ken

[JNewell]

[quote="The Mastiff"]I do admit that when I act like a horses a$$ it's just me and not the stress of my life though. QUOTE]

I'd like to point out the obvious: that what you said above is profoundly contrary to the beliefs of the world around us.