How warped is acceptable?

[Bill1170]

I recently purchased 4 of the 9Cr18Mo mules and today I opened the other 3 to check them out. Of the 4, the first one is the straightest, with the blade tip deviating under 1 mm from centerline. The other 3 are more warped, and I will call CS, but do not want to be a pain about it.

How far out is too far? 2 of the bent ones make me very uncomfortable, while the 3rd one is borderline.

Is it safe to bend them back if they are only out a few mm overall?

Thanks,
Bill

[yablanowitz]

They are $20 knives. How much warpage is acceptable to you on a $20 knife? If they are warped more than that, send them back.

Good luck trying to bend them back. Unless you heat them enough to destroy the heat treatment, they are likely to snap if you apply sufficient force to bend them. I'm pretty sure that won't be covered under warranty.

[joshth09]

It really depends on how bad the bend is...if it makes you uncomfortable then send them back.

I sent a benchmade 940 the other day for much less. there was a bad grind line perpendicular to the length of the blade that you could just barely barely feel with your finger nail.

[anti-torsion]

Bill,

The whole point of the mule project is to give people a chance to try new steels, and provide feedback to Spyderco. They are not going to perfect as they are experimental so Spyderco, the manufacturers (who are new to the steel as well) and the customers can try something new that's never been done before. You can call CS, they can exchange them but as Sal has said in another thread, you might end up with the same issues (part of the experimenting side of this project). I would suggest you use them and provide feedback on how the steel holds up and not worry about fit and finish on a knife that cost $20.

[Jay_Ev]

It should not matter if it was twenty dollars or one dollar. If you are not satisfied, you should just work with the appropriate people at Spyderco and I'm sure they will bring this issue to a satisfactory resolution.

[Noble]

I dont know about you guys, but 20$ or 20000$, i expect my knives to be straight. there really is no excuse imho. unless the curve, or warp, or anything other than straight is listed before you buy it, i dont think you should receive a warped blade. How do you expect to test out a metal if your draw cuts are bieng thrown off by a offset trailing tip? What about precision work with the tip like xacto-knife duties? If i cant test the knife doing things i would normally do then all i have is an exotic steel hunk in my hand. kinda defeats the purpose of the mule project to a degree. thats just my two cents.

[The Mastiff]

The purpose of the mule program from the beginning has never been to provide kit knives to customers. It's strictly a way to put types of steel in our hands ( those of us who choose to participate) that we normally don't see.

It's that simple. There are actual knife kits to be purchased at other companies.

If you bought these and are dissatisfied send them back. You might think about not buying any more mules if you don't like them. They aren't, and weren't designed for everybody.

Too many complaints and the program becomes a liability. It's not a profit venture for Spyderco as it is. It's more of a favor to some of us.

Does anybody know any similar opportunities ever in the history of the cutlery industry?

[Bill1170]

As the posts to date demonstrate, there are several sides to the issue, and it is this complexity that caused me to ask the question of the forum.

I realized when I placed my order that the mule project is of an experimental nature, but did not realize what were my tolerances for acceptable blade deformation. So long as the scale material is flexible (cord wrap, anyone?) these can all be made into workable knives. The one for kitchen use is important from a testing perspective, so the scales on that one need to be easily cleanable.

Not having much experience using sideways bent blades, except on SAK's, I really do not know how the deformation will affect the user ergonomics. I imagine this varies a lot with the user.

A blade at Rc59 is pretty springy, so it is not easy to bend. I am not about to try this until I have spoken with someone who has direct experience. If I did try it and snapped the blade, I would not expect the company to give me a new one. Abuse is not covered.

Thank you to all who responded so far. I appreciate the variety of viewpoints as I seek to clarify my own.

Bill

[gaj999]

At some point, warpage becomes objectionable, I wouldn't cack about 3mm or less ... but then I didn't buy a bunch to make gifts out of, either. If you have to lay the thing on a flat surface to tell that it's warped, I'd say it was just fine.

I ran back and grabbed the warped MT05 that I put scales on. To the eye, it looks straight. I've been using it and it's working well. When I put a steel ruler on it, I can see that there is some warpage, maybe 1mm or so. It's not visible to the naked eye. I would have no problem giving it away as a gift. It also appears to be less warped than before the scales went on, so gluing and clamping the tang probably will reduce any warpage your Mules have.

IMO, the knife is perfectly acceptable. If you want perfect F&F, buy a regular production model, not a Mule. As an analogy, the Mule compares to a stripped econo-box car. Anybody who buys one should not expect Lexus-level F&F.

Gordon

[Noble]

So what im hearing out of you guys is the metal that im holding in my hands is more importiant than the function of it? The fact that its an uncommon metal negates the fact that it should be fully functional? Im not crapping on the program at all. I applaud Spyderco for this program for sure, but you guys are saying exactly the opposite of its principal values. What im reading in your posts is that the metal itself, is more importiant than the functionality ot it as a whole. I disagree. As ive stated in my above posts, a warped blade will interfere with various kinds of cuts. How do you use this knife in accordance with its designed purpose of testing the metal if your specimen does not perform on par with straight blade attributes? To put it into car terms for some of you, its like getting to try out a bunch of ferraris with the same chassis but different motors, and one of em has an alignment problem. In scientific terms this would relate to a contaminated specimen. The factors of the mule program as i understand it are:
1. Same Blade Geometry. Controlled Attribute. (including a straight blade)
2. Different Metal Composition between models. The Variable.

If you dont have consistancy on the controlled attribute, your data (users overall experience) is incomparable. And isnt that the idea of the whole project? Comparing it with the other knives of different alloys?

Id say send it back for one with a straight blade.

[sal]

Hi Bill,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

The current Mule Team made from a Chinese alloy 9Cr18Mo has not been used before (other than 200 test folders) in production. It'a a large piece of steel and the maker has no experience with working it. There is no history to go on. If the blade is warped too much for you, you should send it back to Spyderco. I doubt than any are perfect, depending on the measurement.

As we, if we, work with the steel in the future, we will learn how to deal with the characteristics of the material. Each steel has a different personality.

We made 1,000 pieces. I don't know how many are remaining.

I agree with earlier posts that it would not be a good idea to try to bend it yourself. I don't think it is a safe activity with such a sharp blade.

sal

[sarguy]

Working on the weekend, Sal? I always have lots of respect for CEOs and the like who clearly have more than a M-F, 9-5 mentality :)

Bill1170, even though you had the bad luck of getting an off-kilter blade, I appreciate that you shared it on the forums. Everyone here has a chance to help improve a product, and not sharing flaws would not serve Sal and the rest of the forumites well.

Sal, when we submit feedback on our mules is there a specific email to send it to or a format that we should use so that we all present similar types of info? It seems that by the end of the test you could have a whole jumble of information to sort out.

[araneae]

I would like to see a photo of a warped mule. Several reports have been made, but no photos have surfaced. I don't have one, but hope to pick one up.

[sal]

Hi Sarguy,

Thanx for the kind words. I do take my job seriously. Often problems can fester by Monday. Depends on if I'm in town with no visitors.

On the warpage, I'm sure we set a line on what was acceptable in QC. As mentioned, new steel. We had a warpage issue in a previous mule and did the same. Working with a new steel is like dancing with a new partner, or driving a new race car. You're gonna step on toes and spin out until you learn.

As far as the information; It's just us guys. :o Input comes in here. I listen. Just a few steel junkies at Spyderco, mostly Eric and me. You speak, I listen. Then I try to chase foundries.

We've got a few interesting new steels from Carpenter to test. They've decided to get into the blade business. I've been working with one of their metalurgists. (Rick G) Very bright guy. Brian Huegel (Country knives) has been helping them as well.

They've got some very cool stuff.

sal

[gaj999]

So what im hearing out of you guys is the metal that im holding in my hands is more importiant than the function of it?

A millimeter or two of warping sure isn't going to affect anything I will do with it. If you gave me three knives, one straight, and one each with a 2mm warp in opposite directions to use, I probably wouldn't be able to tell you which was which just by using it. What exactly do you do with your knives where that level of curvature makes a difference?

Gordon

[hickster]

The only thing I would be concerned about is if the handle area was so warped that scales would not attach flatly and end up with a gap.
hickster

[Clawhammer]

I reckon you're all 'warped', you bunch 'o knife junkies ! :D

[MrCharlie]

Is it possible that Sal has just dropped us a hint (Carpenter steel) about the next Mule?

[sal]

Sorry Charlie,

If it's a hint you want?

When Crucible was having some major problems, we were able to get the last of a batch of their new CPM-S35VN. Just enough for a short run of Mules.

Altough we do have some new Carpenter steel on order for Mules, it's not next.

sal

[Noble]

A millimeter or two of warping sure isn't going to affect anything I will do with it. If you gave me three knives, one straight, and one each with a 2mm warp in opposite directions to use, I probably wouldn't be able to tell you which was which just by using it. What exactly do you do with your knives where that level of curvature makes a difference?

Gordon

Hello Gordon,

My wife and I cut lots of pictures and do layout work. She does alot of precision tip-of-the-knife kind of cuts and sometimes I like to use my spyders for that. If the tip is wonky, you can totally get a crappy border. Its very evident, even when its just a little. Usually this is the task of xacto knives for us, but I dont always want to go and buy some, and my knives are just as sharp so its a go. I can understand those of use chopping manila rope and doing food prep and other such tasks wouldnt see any problem with a deflected tip at all, and thats good for them.