That's not the bottom line since we don't know what QC/QA process was used in this case. Depending on how the QC process works it's entirely possible that the warped blades were not picked out during a batch test or just missed by whatever other process was in use. QC doesn't always mean someone is sitting there looking at every knife that goes out the door. It can mean a lot of different things, and AFAIK we don't know much about how Spyderco, or really any knife company, does it.5.56 wrote:But the bottom line is, a QC guy looked at each of these knives and deemed that 2mm+ of warpage is acceptable. Why?
How warped is acceptable?
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spoonrobot
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Hi Gordon,gaj999 wrote:Well, IIRC, the tip of his worst example was 4.2mm from the table, or about 2.1mm of warping. That's not over just the tang, it's over the whole knife, tip to tang. Over just the tang, we're talking about half of that, or about 1mm. That's roughly what I saw when I put the handle on mine. I had no trouble whatsoever putting scales on it and it's cutting just fine. If you don't get a steel ruler out, you'd swear it was straight.
When you use a new material and manufacturer, there's going to be a learning process. Mule team buyers are participating in the process. That means taking some of the risk that things don't turn out perfect the first time. I'm happy taking that risk if it lets me get my hands on new or hard-to-get steels. 52100 and CPM-M4 blew my hair back in a major way. MT05 is fun and interesting. I'm really excited to try CPM-S35VN. I love the program. My ZDP-189 Mule is still uncracked, but if it does crack, I won't be sending it back in ...
Maybe there needs to be better communication to potential Mule buyers about the level of finish, so that expectations are better met.
Gordon
You are correct about the measurements. I do not want people throwing my numbers around without understanding what they really mean. You got the picture better than some others who have commented.
On my worst example, the blade has more of the warp than the tang. These mules are not so simple to assess with a ruler because they vary in thickness once you get onto the blade. To visualize what I have, when my Starrett ruler is against the concave side, it touches the butt of the tang and the tip of the blade, with a small gap (about .5 mm) between the front of the tang and the straightedge. On a perfectly straight 3 mm mule the ruler would touch the tang all along the way and the tip would be 1.5 mm away from the ruler.
The blade alone appears straight when the ruler is against the concave side, because the warp cancels the natural curve of the distal taper. On the convex side of just the blade I have about 1 mm gap at the tip when the ruler is flat against the base of the blade.
As I said before, a lot of this warp could be compensated for by adjusting the handle slabs. It sounds like your MT05 is similar to mine, and I am encouraged to hear that it cuts fine for you. I am sorry to have missed the M4 mule, as it sounds like a real thoroughbred.
Bill
FWIW, all four of the latest version I've received are essentially perfectly straight when checked against an expensive machinists' straightedge. I have not encountered any warped Mules in any of the prior runs either.
Sal, thank you for your patience and politeness. Thank you also for what remains a really interesting and, errr, cutting edge
, program.
Sal, thank you for your patience and politeness. Thank you also for what remains a really interesting and, errr, cutting edge
, program.Wanna trade? :D Just kidding.JNewell wrote:FWIW, all four of the latest version I've received are essentially perfectly straight when checked against an expensive machinists' straightedge. I have not encountered any warped Mules in any of the prior runs either.
Sal, thank you for your patience and politeness. Thank you also for what remains a really interesting and, errr, cutting edge
But seriously, I e-mailed Spyderco today and mentioned that I want to swap my two worst ones for straighter ones. I was too busy yesterday to get to it. I agree with you on Sal's patience and politeness. He knows what it means to be a gentleman.
Bill
Heck, yeah, he puts up with us! :D
There was someone at BF B&Ming about why these weren't polished like a $200 knife. I just could not understand what this person was thinking.
OTOH, if the tang is too warped to put scales on that don't pinch you, it kinda defeats the test-bed purpose of the program, I think.
There was someone at BF B&Ming about why these weren't polished like a $200 knife. I just could not understand what this person was thinking.
OTOH, if the tang is too warped to put scales on that don't pinch you, it kinda defeats the test-bed purpose of the program, I think.
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defenestrate
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Sal,
Don't change a thing about the Mule program. I'd say that the vast majority of us who have taken part are very appreciative. For me, it's a two-birds-with-one-stone proposition: Get a Spyderco fixed blade knife for a ridiculously low price, AND get some practice on making handles, as I would like eventually to make knives of my own. I look forward to trying out different steels as they come out and think that this is definitely a great way to learn about them.
I am personally curious as to how much that amount of warpage would affect any kind of use. I will report on my own Mules, should I see any bend, and if it in any way affects how I am able to use them.
Don't change a thing about the Mule program. I'd say that the vast majority of us who have taken part are very appreciative. For me, it's a two-birds-with-one-stone proposition: Get a Spyderco fixed blade knife for a ridiculously low price, AND get some practice on making handles, as I would like eventually to make knives of my own. I look forward to trying out different steels as they come out and think that this is definitely a great way to learn about them.
I am personally curious as to how much that amount of warpage would affect any kind of use. I will report on my own Mules, should I see any bend, and if it in any way affects how I am able to use them.
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Happy, Happy, Happy! Peel, Peel, Peel!
Happy, Happy, Happy! Peel, Peel, Peel!
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The Mastiff
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- Location: raleigh nc
I agree completely. Maybe those not satisfied should buy their mules in these steels from other manufacturers who are doing it better. Perhaps someone can get custom makers interested.OTOH, if the tang is too warped to put scales on that don't pinch you, it kinda defeats the test-bed purpose of the program, I think.
:cool:
On the other hand perhaps it's time to say Sal & Spyderco did the best they could, and buy it or not buy it depending on the individuals feelings. Personally I feel fortunate to have the chance to obtain these mules. The Flaws are part of the testing. That's on Sal's end not ours though. Not only the steel but it's suppliers, Processors, heat treaters, grinerrs. The whole package.We're all learning.
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
Amen. What other knifemaker would develop and follow through on a program like this? This, IMO, is the single thing that separates Spydeco and Sal Glesser from the rest of the crowd: innovation. Sometimes I like the results, sometimes it doesn't do anything for me (but usually is making someone else happy). Either way, I just don't see the continual innovation and exploration and experimentation with any other edge-tools companies.
And, to top it off, how many company presidents would come down from the corner office to deal with issues (both valid and stupid) on a one-to-one basis on multiple internet fora? My hat's off to Sal and Spyderco.
And, to top it off, how many company presidents would come down from the corner office to deal with issues (both valid and stupid) on a one-to-one basis on multiple internet fora? My hat's off to Sal and Spyderco.
It has been a busy week. I finally sent off the two worst of my warped Mules to W&R after speaking with the nicest man there on the telephone.
There has not been time to do my handle scales yet on the two I still have, but I am hoping to do them soon. I want to place one into service as a kitchen cutter for a testbed of daily use. Although we have 6" and 8" nice knives for the kitchen, it is amazing how often we both reach for the 3" 5 Star.
Small knives are light and controllable, so I think the Mule will get a lot of use. I like smaller blades with larger handles for better power and control, and my kitchen mule will have a better handle shape than the 5 Stars do.
Thanks to all who participated in this thread. The variety of viewpoints was extremely helpful to me in clarifying what I should do. So long as the replacements are straighter than the ones I sent back, I will be satisfied and make them into finished knives to use and learn about 9Cr18Mo steel for a user blade.
Bill
There has not been time to do my handle scales yet on the two I still have, but I am hoping to do them soon. I want to place one into service as a kitchen cutter for a testbed of daily use. Although we have 6" and 8" nice knives for the kitchen, it is amazing how often we both reach for the 3" 5 Star.
Small knives are light and controllable, so I think the Mule will get a lot of use. I like smaller blades with larger handles for better power and control, and my kitchen mule will have a better handle shape than the 5 Stars do.
Thanks to all who participated in this thread. The variety of viewpoints was extremely helpful to me in clarifying what I should do. So long as the replacements are straighter than the ones I sent back, I will be satisfied and make them into finished knives to use and learn about 9Cr18Mo steel for a user blade.
Bill
Hello again,
I got the handle scales on my first Mule Team 05. I used cork, epoxy-laminated from 3 layers of 4 mm floor tile, for the scales. For this first effort I simply bandsawed close to the line and trued it up with files after attachment to the tang.
Scales are affixed with epoxy thickened with silica fume, and a pair of 3/16" diameter by 5/8" long blind pins. The pins were cut from a #10 stainless steel tapping screw for better purchase on the epoxy. Blind pins and no lanyard tube are suited better for kitchen use. It is easy to keep clean and was easy to shape with files and rasps. The flexible cork easily conforms to the tang for no gaps showing.
The handle is very fat in width, which I like for the lateral control it gives me. It is heavily contoured, similar to an Aqua Salt, based on the photos I have seen. The cork is very grippy when wet or dry. I finished it with 60 grit paper to ensure a good grip and applied 3 coats of Waterlox sealer. The lightness is pleasing in the hand, as is the soft feel. No, it will not float in fresh water, I tried it.
We have been using it in the kitchen for a week now and it makes me realize how poorly my other kitchen knives hold an edge. The 9Cr18Mo holds its edge well at a lower angle than the 5 Stars we have. Although the shape is not optimized for food prep, the Mule is fun to use. With the 3 mm spine and the beefy handle, it is very precise. Kitchen is the best testing ground for a fixed blade in my life, and for a plus my wife also gets to use it and provide feedback. See pics.
Bill
Looks like I need to study up how to post pics.
I got the handle scales on my first Mule Team 05. I used cork, epoxy-laminated from 3 layers of 4 mm floor tile, for the scales. For this first effort I simply bandsawed close to the line and trued it up with files after attachment to the tang.
Scales are affixed with epoxy thickened with silica fume, and a pair of 3/16" diameter by 5/8" long blind pins. The pins were cut from a #10 stainless steel tapping screw for better purchase on the epoxy. Blind pins and no lanyard tube are suited better for kitchen use. It is easy to keep clean and was easy to shape with files and rasps. The flexible cork easily conforms to the tang for no gaps showing.
The handle is very fat in width, which I like for the lateral control it gives me. It is heavily contoured, similar to an Aqua Salt, based on the photos I have seen. The cork is very grippy when wet or dry. I finished it with 60 grit paper to ensure a good grip and applied 3 coats of Waterlox sealer. The lightness is pleasing in the hand, as is the soft feel. No, it will not float in fresh water, I tried it.
We have been using it in the kitchen for a week now and it makes me realize how poorly my other kitchen knives hold an edge. The 9Cr18Mo holds its edge well at a lower angle than the 5 Stars we have. Although the shape is not optimized for food prep, the Mule is fun to use. With the 3 mm spine and the beefy handle, it is very precise. Kitchen is the best testing ground for a fixed blade in my life, and for a plus my wife also gets to use it and provide feedback. See pics.
Bill
Looks like I need to study up how to post pics.
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No staining at all so far. Sharp knives at our home do not go into soakwater with the other dishes - too dangerous for unwary hands, plus it wrecks the edges to collide with the flatware. We hand wash them and they store on a magnet above the sink to drip dry. If a knife is going to rust, it will do it where the blade contacts the magnet, since this is the last part to air dry.JNewell wrote:I agree on the kitchen being a tough environment...any staining or other effects from using on various foods?
Mule has cut tomatoes, apples, carrots, onions, cheese. Maybe also some other stuff, but no citrus yet, the "acid test" of stain resistance.
Bill
I'm actually wondering about a kitchen test for the series. It's obviously not all-encompassing but it might be useful. Some of my Mules haven't really gotten a workout yet because I haven't put scales on them, but this would be easy to do without scales.
What kind of foods have proven to stain, etc.? Are there food/kitchen goods that tend to dull knives? I mean, other than trying to whittle coconuts...???
What kind of foods have proven to stain, etc.? Are there food/kitchen goods that tend to dull knives? I mean, other than trying to whittle coconuts...???
Hi Sal,sal wrote:Hi Bill,
Nice job and good tests.
Will you cut some citrus? I'd like to know how the steel holds up.
sal
Yes, I will be cutting citrus before long. We often make our own orange, lemon, or grapefruit juice at home, just haven't lately. I'll report back when we do.
And Gordon, thank you for the kind words.
Bill