am i being to critical?

[anthonyc]

so i have a g10 caly 3 that doesnt get carried becuase there is a bit a vertical blade play. if i tighten it up, the blade play goes away, but the smooth action is gone and just feels too tight. would sending it in to spyderco be out of line? the blade play isnt much, but i know its there, and its driving me crazy.

[rycen]

A small amount of up/down play is normal in lockbacks.

[CanisMajor]

IMO, if it is something you can't live with, then you should send it in. I don't think you are being too critical or too "up tight". Ultimately, it is your knife and you should be happy with it.

Canis

[anthonyc]

A small amount of up/down play is normal in lockbacks.

you know, ive heard that before. but none of my other spyderco lockbacks have any play what so ever. in fact, thats the reason i buy spydercos! haha

[anthonyc]

IMO, if it is something you can't live with, then you should send it in. I don't think you are being too critical or too "up tight". Ultimately, it is your knife and you should be happy with it.

Canis

thanks man

[aebfroman]

Is the blade play just by wriggling it or under pressure / push cuts? All of my lock backs give just a little bit when I crank down on a box or whatever I am cutting. None of them exhibit blade play when simply in the open position, pinned or otherwise.

[anthonyc]

it clicks if i move the blade with my thumb

[The Deacon]

A small amount of up/down play is normal in lockbacks.

I think a more accurate statement would be that a small amount of vertical play is considered to be within acceptable tolerances for a Spyderco midlock. I own quite a few of them which I purchased new. Some have zero play, some have a bit, a few even have what I'd consider to be a bit more than a bit. It does't make the knife any less safe and rejecting all those which exhibit even a bit of it would increase the cost tremendously.

While I doubt Spyderco will consider anthonyc's knife to be a warranty issue, I can't speak for them, so it can't hurt to send it in for evaluation.

[Pneumothorax]

IMO, if it is something you can't live with, then you should send it in. I don't think you are being too critical or too "up tight". Ultimately, it is your knife and you should be happy with it.

Canis

Totally agree with this. At least if you send it in, you will find out if it's in spec or not. It's your knife, you gotta be happy with it. Also, you will find the Spyderco folks to be very pleasant to deal with!

[Franco G]

I think a more accurate statement would be that a small amount of vertical play is considered to be within acceptable tolerances for a Spyderco midlock. I own quite a few of them which I purchased new. Some have zero play, some have a bit, a few even have what I'd consider to be a bit more than a bit. It does't make the knife any less safe and rejecting all those which exhibit even a bit of it would increase the cost tremendously.

While I doubt Spyderco will consider anthonyc's knife to be a warranty issue, I can't speak for them, so it can't hurt to send it in for evaluation.

Paul, I like very much your explanation but would not quite agree with "it would increase the cost tremendously". Except, if you believe a ~$350 (a cost of Sebenza) is a tremendous amount of money.

I think Spyderco needs better tooling machines (smaller tolerances). That's it. No big philosophy. That would increase costs but not 'tremendously', IMO.

Franco

[The Deacon]

Franco, we could go back and forth on this till **** freezes over. I've said it before, I'll say it again, I think your argument is based on false assumptions. For one thing, I doubt Chris Reeve could deliver a midlock with a guarantee of zero vertical play, for the price of a Sebenza. You are comparing the RIL framelock, which is the simplest lock to build and which almost everyone who fancies themselves to be a knifemaker builds, to one which very few attempt. Even some of the best knifemakers simply refuse to build one.

You are assuming, I believe incorrectly, that the only issue is tolerances, and by making those smaller you would solve the vertical play issue without introducing any other cost increasing factor. I think you are wrong. I think it would increase the amount of hand fitting required for each knife which would, in turn, increase the unit cost.

You are also assuming that, in "solving" one problem, you will not create another. Again I think you are wrong. I believe that, in the process of solving an annoying, but harmless problem, you would create a new one, a knife which, if opened slowly, or having the slightest bit of foreign material in the lock notch, would, at best, leave the lockbar slightly elevated above the handle and, at worst, not lock up properly. So, to fix that, you'd have to increase the spring tension on the lockbar, which would in turn cause folks to complain about how difficult the knife was to open and close.


But, to answer your question, I seriously doubt many people would be willing to pay $350 for a G-10 Caly 3 which sells here for less than a third that price. So in the context of this thread, yes, a jump from $110 to $350 would be a tremendous INCREASE in the cost of the knife.

[224477]

Guys, on all my mid locks, there is such a 'play'..

It may be annoying if one is too OCD, sometimes it annoyes me too, I have to admit.
But its no big deal till the lock works and keeps the blade locked.
I am no fan of smashing the back of my knives against hard surface, what is also known as the 'spine wack test' but if you want some confidence, use some gloves, grip the handle in a way you wont get a snap on your fingers, while open, a simply try closing the blade by pressure only.

If it fails, I would send that in, as an W&R issue, if it does not, you are good to go.

If you want a knife thats 100% safe, then get a fixed blade, preferably a full tang one, thats not gonna move in any direction. You have to realise that some kind of movement will be still there, by most of the folding knives. Linerlocks tend to move sideways, the blades tend to be off center while closed, lockbacks or mid locks have other issues.

I think Spyderco makes knives to be good users, not to be 0.0001 in tolerances, if you want a masterpiece, get a different brand, but be prepared to pay several times more. Or contact a hole licensed custom maker to make you your knife with hole and 0.0001 tolerances, you will see if he can deliver that and will see the bill for it too.

Deac, Lynn Thomson`s company makes something called a Triad lock, basically a mid lock with a separate stop pin used to support the blade and the lockbar used only to lock it. They claim this eliminates the vertical play, never tried myself, so its pure theory so far from my view, however I do not plan to buy ANY of their folders in future, more than certainly.

By judgin purely from the attached picture, I would say that after some time of hard use, maybe a couple of dozens blade flicks, the stop pin (which is not hardened I believe) gets some deformation - thats basically the reason why by linerlocks the liners travel with time to the other side - and by that as a result, the blade starts to move as well and the lock will get weaker as only the smaller portion of the lock tooth will get a bite on the back of the blade, means the chance of the lock failure increases by this.

Or? :D

[The Deacon]

Jano, I don't own a Cold Steel with that lock, and probably never will. So I can't really say how well, or poorly, it works. It is, after all, being marketed by a company which markets a strip of cloth as a "formidable self-defense tool". :rolleyes: :D

Plus, if the real cause of the play in the Spyderco midlock is, as many believe, the clearance between the blade and lockbar pivots and their respective holes, then I don't see how that lock would be any better. On the other hand it would appear that even the slightest amount of debris on either the front surface of that stop pin or the surface of the lock notch which contacts it might cause the lock not to engage properly. Trading a minor annoyance for a potentially dangerous problem doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

[224477]

You`re **** right about how CS feels about 'their innovations and contributions' to the market :D :D :D But lets think of the shiny footprints and keep Lynn`s business to Lynn :cool:

[RICHAR]

The only Spyderco I have ever had with any blade play was the 1st Generation BRK Native , which I understand was contracted to Camillus. When a knife locks open there should be no play what so ever.

[aebfroman]

Plus, if the real cause of the play in the Spyderco midlock is, as many believe, the clearance between the blade and lockbar pivots and their respective holes

People really believe this? If the holes were too big the knife would be rattling no matter what position it was in. Would it not?

It seems to me that it is impossible to have a perfect fit between the lock bar and the blade tang given the arc motion that the lock bar moves in. The only thing, usually, stopping the blade from traveling beyond the open position is the lock bar itself and when hyper extending pressure is applied to the blade the tang pushes on the blade in the direction it moves when it is actuated to unlock the blade. The movement is just the knob on the end of the bar binding in its channel on the tang. This alarmed me at first but after thinking about it I think it is superior to having a perfectly tight lock up.

Its like the AK47, the tolerances are slightly loose and that's what makes it last as long and perform reliably.

[STi]

My Caly 3 has play both up&dwn and Side to Side..I have tightened it as much as possible with stripping the screw slighly and the the play is still there but not as bad...I think all my spydercos have the axis lock play except my $5 G-10 Finch...But the lock play doesen't bother me like the side to side play! My SE Caly 3 which i just sold last night has no side to side play...I'm going to keep buying them and selling them untill i get 2 PE versions with no Side to Side play.

[huugh]

People really believe this? If the holes were too big the knife would be rattling no matter what position it was in. Would it not?

No. To hear a rattle, you would need to have either sharp transition (like point or corner, instead of circular or semi-circular shapes of holes) or larger momentum.

You can clearly see that there are quite noticeable tolerances in holes when you dismantle a lockback.


All I can say to the matter is that each lockback I had developed a slight vertical bladeplay (most notable when cutting something with more resistance ((like wood, heavy cardboard, blocks of cheese etc.).
BUT, I have two things to add: i) it really should be only very minor (basically hardly (or not) visually perceivable)
and ii) if there is also horizontal bladeplay, no matter how tight you adjust the blade (in margins of still being able to open/close) it is not a good sign!

[anthonyc]

thanks for the feedback guys. im gonna send to spyderco. i trust they will do the right thing, as they've always done :)

[spoonrobot]

Its like the AK47, the tolerances are slightly loose and that's what makes it last as long and perform reliably.

Apples to Oldsmobiles.

The AK pattern is considered the way it is because of the clearances between the moving parts of the design; not the tolerances in production. It's also over-gassed, fires a heavily tapered-cased cartridge and has not really been giving more than cursory examination by much of the shooting public. The last point leads to a blind stereotyping of the arm that fails to recognize the nuances of it's design and production.

I'll just excuse myself now. :D