Okay here's one more bit on composites for handles, then I'll take a break. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
The injection-molded FRN handle is a common sight on lightweight and economy knives. Custom maker Bob "T" has been using an interesting high-performance variation for some of his custom knives. Instead of reinforcing Zytel with glass filaments, he uses carbon filaments (same percentage by fill weight).
In theory this might result in "Zytel" handled knives that are stronger and lighter than the standard fiberglass reinforced versions. If Spyderco is injecting its own handles, then the cost question probably comes down to the cost of carbon filaments versus E-glass filaments.
If it is cost feasable with a minimal price increase, and actually has a performance advantage, can you imagine Enduras and Delicas et al. with "molded carbon fiber" handles? <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
A quote by Bob "T" on the subject:
"In answer to your question, the molded carbon fibre that I use on the ATCF is really carbon fibre but I am quick to tell people that it is molded, not laid as the current material is. I have been using this stuff for 10 years or so, long before the laid cloth/epoxy material became popular (I also now offer the laid cloth/epoxy as an option).
"You are correct when you called it Zytel. This is a registered trade name for a type of injection moldable nylon. Since nylon has very little structural strength, it is often reinforced with fibres. Most knives made of Zytel use 33% glass fibre the maximum you can use and still be able to inject it. The ATCF scales however use 33% long fibre carbon instead of glass, that is why it is described in my brochure as 'molded carbon fibre'
Best regards, Bob"
Another suggestion in the same vein is to use a fiber fill mix of carbon and aramid (Kevlar), or glass (E or S2) and aramid. Here is a quote to explain:
"Aramids should be used in conjunction with fiberglass in most laminates because their properties complement one another. The weakest aspect of aramid is its compressive strength and that is one of the strong points of fiberglass. Combining the two combines the tensile strength, toughness, and light weight of aramid with the compressive strength and rigidity of glass."
This also works with carbon, but even better since the graphite has greater compressive strength and rigidity than glass. Now can you imaging Enduras and Delicas with "molded carbon/kevlar handles?" However, this may be less true for filled nylon than laminates of cloth and epoxy.
And one last quote on E-glass vs S2 glass:
"Compared to E-glass, S2-glass provides about 40% higher tensile and flexural strengths and about 10 to 20% higher compressive strength and flexural modulus."
Any thoughts? Too crazy for the real world?
Edited by - Carlos on 11/13/00 4:23:36 PM
CRN vs. FRN for handles.
Hi Carlos. Seems like there is a lot out there just waiting for the tekno junkies to play in the "sandbox" with.
I have one of Bob T's early molded pieces with the injected carbon fiber filaments.. Mine has a ceramic blade that Bob made up for me as an experiment back when we were playing with ceramics for blades.
sal
I have one of Bob T's early molded pieces with the injected carbon fiber filaments.. Mine has a ceramic blade that Bob made up for me as an experiment back when we were playing with ceramics for blades.
sal
Hi Sal,
I think it would be a full time job for you R&D guys just to keep track of the innovations in Aerospace and other cutting edge applications. The real trick is finding new goodies that fit within the production knife price points. There is tons of stuff that is just too ecpensive to even think about, or use in more than a limited fashion -- like your various sprint runs of knives with carbon laminate handles.
For example I was thinking about aluminum extrusions -- another technology Lotus applied to the Elise. In that case, it used extrusions for one-piece chassis sub-assemblies which it then bonded together. In the case of knife handles, you could produce a light and strong one-pice handle by extruding them from aluminum -- and it would probably cost less than machining them from aluminum like Speed-tech does. But I'd bet that it would still be too expensive to meet even your high-end price point -- but it still might be worth looking into to be sure. After all, the $0.05 soda can that we are accustomed to is an aluminum extrusion.
Here's a long quote on extusions:
"The aluminum extrusion process actually augments the properties of aluminum, because it allows the creation of a final end product that is stronger and more resilient than components that must be assembled. It allows for the fabrication of products to various specifications and sizes, while being flexible enough to allow for design alterations, augmentations and additions.
The process also facilitates cost-efficiency of the use of aluminum, as it creates finished products that are either complete as a unit or can interlock or join with other strong metallic parts.
This process allows designers and engineers freedom to create aluminum products in complex and intricate shapes, since the end product can be extruded as a final piece instead of requiring multiple ones that must be assembled.
The extrusion process also creates a natural finish - a thin layer of aluminum oxide - that forms on the surface of the metal as a result of the process. This naturally resilient and attractive finish can be improved with additional beautifying and weather-resistant finishes.
The extrusion process starts with the furnace, where aluminum billets are heated to the necessary point of malleability. The aluminum or aluminum alloy is heated to temperatures ranging 750 to 900 degrees Fahrenheit, at which temperatures it acts as a malleable solid.
At this point, aluminum is a soft solid that can be pressed through dies, using scaleable amounts of pressure - a process called extrusion.
An extrusion press utilizes a hydraulic ram that applies between 100 to 15,000 tons or more of pressure. The extrusion press container chamber, which holds the billet, is made of steel. The aperture in the die represents the final product. The aluminum is pressed through the chamber and through the die to create the final, shaped profile.
Complex shapes may emerge from the extrusion press as slowly as one foot per minute. Simpler shapes can emerge as quickly as 200 feet per minute.
As the extrusion leaves the extrusion die, quenching (or cooling) methods such as air, water sprays, water baths and mists are used to quickly cool it." http://www.magnode.com/
I think it would be a full time job for you R&D guys just to keep track of the innovations in Aerospace and other cutting edge applications. The real trick is finding new goodies that fit within the production knife price points. There is tons of stuff that is just too ecpensive to even think about, or use in more than a limited fashion -- like your various sprint runs of knives with carbon laminate handles.
For example I was thinking about aluminum extrusions -- another technology Lotus applied to the Elise. In that case, it used extrusions for one-piece chassis sub-assemblies which it then bonded together. In the case of knife handles, you could produce a light and strong one-pice handle by extruding them from aluminum -- and it would probably cost less than machining them from aluminum like Speed-tech does. But I'd bet that it would still be too expensive to meet even your high-end price point -- but it still might be worth looking into to be sure. After all, the $0.05 soda can that we are accustomed to is an aluminum extrusion.
Here's a long quote on extusions:
"The aluminum extrusion process actually augments the properties of aluminum, because it allows the creation of a final end product that is stronger and more resilient than components that must be assembled. It allows for the fabrication of products to various specifications and sizes, while being flexible enough to allow for design alterations, augmentations and additions.
The process also facilitates cost-efficiency of the use of aluminum, as it creates finished products that are either complete as a unit or can interlock or join with other strong metallic parts.
This process allows designers and engineers freedom to create aluminum products in complex and intricate shapes, since the end product can be extruded as a final piece instead of requiring multiple ones that must be assembled.
The extrusion process also creates a natural finish - a thin layer of aluminum oxide - that forms on the surface of the metal as a result of the process. This naturally resilient and attractive finish can be improved with additional beautifying and weather-resistant finishes.
The extrusion process starts with the furnace, where aluminum billets are heated to the necessary point of malleability. The aluminum or aluminum alloy is heated to temperatures ranging 750 to 900 degrees Fahrenheit, at which temperatures it acts as a malleable solid.
At this point, aluminum is a soft solid that can be pressed through dies, using scaleable amounts of pressure - a process called extrusion.
An extrusion press utilizes a hydraulic ram that applies between 100 to 15,000 tons or more of pressure. The extrusion press container chamber, which holds the billet, is made of steel. The aperture in the die represents the final product. The aluminum is pressed through the chamber and through the die to create the final, shaped profile.
Complex shapes may emerge from the extrusion press as slowly as one foot per minute. Simpler shapes can emerge as quickly as 200 feet per minute.
As the extrusion leaves the extrusion die, quenching (or cooling) methods such as air, water sprays, water baths and mists are used to quickly cool it." http://www.magnode.com/
???
Hi Sal, I probably misunderstood how you are implementing bonding (Maybe I need to take a trip to Lotus too <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>).
I was thinking that you were going to use bonding to hold together handles made of aluminum, carbon fiber, or G10, without using screws or pins. Do you have something else in mind?
Hi Sal, I probably misunderstood how you are implementing bonding (Maybe I need to take a trip to Lotus too <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>).
I was thinking that you were going to use bonding to hold together handles made of aluminum, carbon fiber, or G10, without using screws or pins. Do you have something else in mind?
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Ronald Shanklin Jr.
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Wow, this is definately interesting. Carlos Thanks for digging this up for the rest of us.
Sal at the show you told me how expensive it was for the company to do inlay liners. Yes it is stronger. Other companies just put two sheets of materials together and save money. Now here is a thought. If you could mold the Carbon Fiber "Zytel" or the Carbon Fiber/Kevlar "Zytel" into any shape then how about one with a cut out to fit an inlay liner. Then you could put two liners, one on each side. That is the biggest complaint about the Military and Starmate. You could use thick pieces of steel since it would still be light enough. I personally love the Micro Bar on Microtechs. That could be done.
I think this idea would also work with the Compression Lock. Instead of milling out
g-10, the molded handle if it is as strong or stronger would solve a lot of expense problems.
Liong
Sal at the show you told me how expensive it was for the company to do inlay liners. Yes it is stronger. Other companies just put two sheets of materials together and save money. Now here is a thought. If you could mold the Carbon Fiber "Zytel" or the Carbon Fiber/Kevlar "Zytel" into any shape then how about one with a cut out to fit an inlay liner. Then you could put two liners, one on each side. That is the biggest complaint about the Military and Starmate. You could use thick pieces of steel since it would still be light enough. I personally love the Micro Bar on Microtechs. That could be done.
I think this idea would also work with the Compression Lock. Instead of milling out
g-10, the molded handle if it is as strong or stronger would solve a lot of expense problems.
Liong
Hi. I'm looking for a thread on the strength of FRN handles and this was the nearest I could find. If someone want's to point me somewhere, thank you!
Otherwise, I've just got a lightweight dragonfly and the ergonomics are lovely (dunno about the pinky shelf- my hands are a little too big). The clip feels like it might break - is this my imagination or does it happen? Also, it's lovely and lightweight, but I wonder how gentle I need to be - how much weight do you guys reckon you can push down on it with and still be nicely within a decent margin. I was thinking about 40lb (cutting through the edge of a carpet or something) but I don't want to break it. It looks a bit vunerable if I accidentally put side loading on it (eg pushing down and the knife turns slightly).
If anyone can offer advice / insight it'd be much appreciated.
Cheers,
Sam
Otherwise, I've just got a lightweight dragonfly and the ergonomics are lovely (dunno about the pinky shelf- my hands are a little too big). The clip feels like it might break - is this my imagination or does it happen? Also, it's lovely and lightweight, but I wonder how gentle I need to be - how much weight do you guys reckon you can push down on it with and still be nicely within a decent margin. I was thinking about 40lb (cutting through the edge of a carpet or something) but I don't want to break it. It looks a bit vunerable if I accidentally put side loading on it (eg pushing down and the knife turns slightly).
If anyone can offer advice / insight it'd be much appreciated.
Cheers,
Sam
Hi Morph,
Welcome to the forum. I'll answer what I can. You asked about the clip breaking, is it FRN like the handle, if so it may break. Newer models have screwed on metal clips. Even older ones with broken clips can be fixed. As for the handle. Push it. There are different levels of lock strengh, AFAIK the FRN is the same strength. I'm sure that it could easily handle 50Lbs/in. This is the lowest lock rating I remember seeing. Your dragonfly's blade is probably closer to 2in. I've never read of someone breaking a spyderco knife here under normal cutting chores. As for twisting depending on how much you do and the blade thickness. I don't know the DF's blade thickness. The only complaints I've heard relate to the calypso Jrs serrations. This is a thin flat ground blade more suceptable(sp) to breakage on twisting.
Hope this helps a little.
Chris
Be Excellent to each other.
Welcome to the forum. I'll answer what I can. You asked about the clip breaking, is it FRN like the handle, if so it may break. Newer models have screwed on metal clips. Even older ones with broken clips can be fixed. As for the handle. Push it. There are different levels of lock strengh, AFAIK the FRN is the same strength. I'm sure that it could easily handle 50Lbs/in. This is the lowest lock rating I remember seeing. Your dragonfly's blade is probably closer to 2in. I've never read of someone breaking a spyderco knife here under normal cutting chores. As for twisting depending on how much you do and the blade thickness. I don't know the DF's blade thickness. The only complaints I've heard relate to the calypso Jrs serrations. This is a thin flat ground blade more suceptable(sp) to breakage on twisting.
Hope this helps a little.
Chris
Be Excellent to each other.
That's weird, the last 4 posts have just appeared (the page must have cached or something).
Anyway, sorry to talk non-techie on this forum, but do you guys get TVRs over there? Now they are nice (if ahem not quite up to Toyota build quality) mmmm.. tuscan <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
Anyway, sorry to talk non-techie on this forum, but do you guys get TVRs over there? Now they are nice (if ahem not quite up to Toyota build quality) mmmm.. tuscan <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>