Exotic steels in the real world
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Exotic steels in the real world
I started out using Case, Schrade, Kissing Crane, etc. knives with carbon steel blades and they did the job. It was a revelation when Buck first came out with an SS blade. This dates me. Anyway, I have since gone from Microtech, REKAT, Benchmade, etc., etc. to Spyderco and have been here since. I liked ATS 34 and all the blade steels since but and in my experience they have all kept a good edge and served the purpose. IMHO the new exotic blades are sharper at first but take longer to put an edge on. My ZDP blades are so sharp from the factory that it is scary. I carry 2 Spydercos daily, one with a plain H1 blade and the other with a VG10 SE blade and they both do the job. Are exotic steels over rated and will there ever be an end to the quest for a harder and more durable blade? Could it be marketing appeal?
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It depends on how you use your knives. For what I would call the average user, steel is so far past what they need that it isn't even funny. I truly believe the average user can't tell the difference between high end steels without looking at the tang stamp, and that difference makes no difference to them.
The afi's and steel junkies are another matter. For most of them, performance is its own reward. Bragging rights are as important as the actual performance of the steel.
A few of us are hard-core users that do a lot of hard work with our knives. We are looking for a steel that will "do the job" for us, without having to stop and sharpen several times a day. S90V comes darn close.
The afi's and steel junkies are another matter. For most of them, performance is its own reward. Bragging rights are as important as the actual performance of the steel.
A few of us are hard-core users that do a lot of hard work with our knives. We are looking for a steel that will "do the job" for us, without having to stop and sharpen several times a day. S90V comes darn close.
I don't believe in safe queens, only in pre-need replacements.
- Lord vader
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S30V is not to shabby either. :)yablanowitz wrote:It depends on how you use your knives. For what I would call the average user, steel is so far past what they need that it isn't even funny. I truly believe the average user can't tell the difference between high end steels without looking at the tang stamp, and that difference makes no difference to them.
The afi's and steel junkies are another matter. For most of them, performance is its own reward. Bragging rights are as important as the actual performance of the steel.
A few of us are hard-core users that do a lot of hard work with our knives. We are looking for a steel that will "do the job" for us, without having to stop and sharpen several times a day. S90V comes darn close.
- SoCal Operator
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I would like to add that some companies will always find marketing appeal in having the "latest and greatest" without regard to actual perfomance benefits. Steel development could have stopped at VG-10 and I would have been okay with that.
Ask me where I got my awesome SUPERHAWK!
More like Mid-Cal now
Be Prepared
More like Mid-Cal now
Be Prepared
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All I know is I spent a couple of years where I cut a lot of cardboard up and the better the steel the easier my life was. These days I probably could make do with something more basic, but a H1 knife sure is handy in the garden and I like not having to sharpen my ZDP Lum very often and really that's all I actually need at this point.
- FLYBYU44
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VG-10 is good enough for me, however the D2 Para-Military I've since sold did hold an edge a lot longer. I guess D2 isn't exactly special either though. I'm very happy with VG-10, it holds a nice edge, is easy to sharpen and gets the job done. I think most of the steel snob thing is in people's heads and gets there through marketing, I don't think most people could really tell the difference if it came down to it.
Those who choose to live a life without risks, arrive safely at death's door.
All good points and mostly spot on.
As to marketing. I kind of admire Sal for the way he approaches steels. He finds, tests and bring forth a wider variety of steels than anyone else I can think of. BUT he doesn't over hype them. And he surely could. He could publish stress tests, CATRA tests, flex/bend and sheer tests, photo micrographs of edges and grain structures etc etc.... By the time Sal actually delivers a new steel, just the selection process would make us steel junkies ("Hi, my name is Ken and I'm a steel junkie." in unison - "Hi, Ken!" :D ) drool.
I mean, the "junkie" part of me honestly wishes he would. I would love a comparison blurb showing the strengths and weaknesses of every latest release. But Sal's position of 'all good just different' really speaks to his philosophy. He leaves it to us to see if a particular steel is better for our application. The fact that the large majority of Spyderco knives are VG10/S30V says to me that he feels these are the best steels for the vast majority of knife users, today. To want or "need" something "more" puts you on the "fringe" and there things become pretty specialized. You get a user who is willing to spend and extra 30-50 minutes sharpening a harder steel for it's additional edge holding. Someone for whom S30V just isn't stainless enough. etc
Now are some steels better at some things than others? Absolutely. Are all the steels Spyderco uses top notch? Absolutely! It's really up to you to understand whether steels "beyond" (and I'm sure Sal hates that word here) VG10/S30V are right for you (be it for hard use like Yab :D or mental satisfaction like me:rolleyes :)
Will it ever stop? I very much doubt it. New materials are coming out every day. Most not intended for cutlery. But there's always some guy out there going 'man, I wish I could have a knife made out of this stuff'. And so, we have Sal, answering those questions. If the answer is 'Hey, it does pretty well' we see a knife made out of it. If after much use there ever seems to be a universal (read 'not fringe') agreement that this particular steel is universally "better" than VG10/S30V I think you'll see the "standard" Spyderco steel change but until then, we have "fringe" offerings and no one does it better or more regularly than Sal.
Great question!
Ken
As to marketing. I kind of admire Sal for the way he approaches steels. He finds, tests and bring forth a wider variety of steels than anyone else I can think of. BUT he doesn't over hype them. And he surely could. He could publish stress tests, CATRA tests, flex/bend and sheer tests, photo micrographs of edges and grain structures etc etc.... By the time Sal actually delivers a new steel, just the selection process would make us steel junkies ("Hi, my name is Ken and I'm a steel junkie." in unison - "Hi, Ken!" :D ) drool.
I mean, the "junkie" part of me honestly wishes he would. I would love a comparison blurb showing the strengths and weaknesses of every latest release. But Sal's position of 'all good just different' really speaks to his philosophy. He leaves it to us to see if a particular steel is better for our application. The fact that the large majority of Spyderco knives are VG10/S30V says to me that he feels these are the best steels for the vast majority of knife users, today. To want or "need" something "more" puts you on the "fringe" and there things become pretty specialized. You get a user who is willing to spend and extra 30-50 minutes sharpening a harder steel for it's additional edge holding. Someone for whom S30V just isn't stainless enough. etc
Now are some steels better at some things than others? Absolutely. Are all the steels Spyderco uses top notch? Absolutely! It's really up to you to understand whether steels "beyond" (and I'm sure Sal hates that word here) VG10/S30V are right for you (be it for hard use like Yab :D or mental satisfaction like me:rolleyes :)
Will it ever stop? I very much doubt it. New materials are coming out every day. Most not intended for cutlery. But there's always some guy out there going 'man, I wish I could have a knife made out of this stuff'. And so, we have Sal, answering those questions. If the answer is 'Hey, it does pretty well' we see a knife made out of it. If after much use there ever seems to be a universal (read 'not fringe') agreement that this particular steel is universally "better" than VG10/S30V I think you'll see the "standard" Spyderco steel change but until then, we have "fringe" offerings and no one does it better or more regularly than Sal.
Great question!
Ken
玉鋼
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For me, S30V is better than VG-10, but it isn't in the same league with S90V. S30V means carry four and sharpen at lunch for me (not everyday, but that is what I have to be ready for each day), while S90V means carry two and sharpen in the evening.Lord vader wrote:S30V is not to shabby either. :)
I don't believe in safe queens, only in pre-need replacements.
Dang what do you do, cutting sandpapers? :eek:yablanowitz wrote:For me, S30V is better than VG-10, but it isn't in the same league with S90V. S30V means carry four and sharpen at lunch for me (not everyday, but that is what I have to be ready for each day), while S90V means carry two and sharpen in the evening.
Hi Fred,
Good question. I have to agree with what Yab and Ken said (thanx for the kind words Ken).
Carbs worked fine, why do we need fuel injection? A what? Turbocharger you say?
As technology learns more, products improve. Sometimes it's slow. Lab testing is a good foundation, but there is no substitute for real world testing.
In our Seki made models, we were using Gingami I, we tested ATS-55 and VG-10. several years later, customer response, customer service repairs, additional lab testing, concluded that VG-10 worked better for most of our customers, so we slowly switched over all Seki models to VG-10.
In our US plant, we were using 440V until S30V comes along.
Each foundry also has their "super steel". For example ZDP is an exotic Japanese steel that performs very well in abrasion resistance. Some of our customers really like that, so we provide it. the same goes for S90V.
H1 was developed for a group of our customers that really need corrosion resistance.
In my conversations with several steel companies, we finding very nice chemistry's. We do some lab testing, and then we'll make a mule for those that want to play. We also learn from these real world tests.
sal
Good question. I have to agree with what Yab and Ken said (thanx for the kind words Ken).
Carbs worked fine, why do we need fuel injection? A what? Turbocharger you say?
As technology learns more, products improve. Sometimes it's slow. Lab testing is a good foundation, but there is no substitute for real world testing.
In our Seki made models, we were using Gingami I, we tested ATS-55 and VG-10. several years later, customer response, customer service repairs, additional lab testing, concluded that VG-10 worked better for most of our customers, so we slowly switched over all Seki models to VG-10.
In our US plant, we were using 440V until S30V comes along.
Each foundry also has their "super steel". For example ZDP is an exotic Japanese steel that performs very well in abrasion resistance. Some of our customers really like that, so we provide it. the same goes for S90V.
H1 was developed for a group of our customers that really need corrosion resistance.
In my conversations with several steel companies, we finding very nice chemistry's. We do some lab testing, and then we'll make a mule for those that want to play. We also learn from these real world tests.
sal
- CombatGrappler
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Since the day I got the knife virus, I tried to learn as much as I could and what my brain would allow me to about steels and all that. As a nonknife person there was only some stainless and some carbon steel. When I entered the depths of steel science, a whole new universe arose. Yes, it felt that way somehow. :D After a while I purchased the book from Roman Landes about knife blades and steel and learned a lot about the basic stuff: What does it mean when a blade is 'sharp', what is the importance of heattreatment, of blade geometry and so on. It opened my eyes for some of the things that were and are going on in our world of knives.
No matter how some new steels are advertised: The metallophysical processes in steel follow certain rules and these rules cannot be outwitted. Some folks keep trying to tell us that their knives are better because their steel is tougher and sharper than all the other steels from their competitors on the market.
One of the reasons I like Spyderco is the way they're doing their own thing in a down-to-earth fashion without the unnecessary stuff. I like the way they take care of their customers (e.g. Mule Team) and never lose the sense for innovation. I didn't buy a Mili D2 because of some crazy, over-the-top advertising, I bought it cause I knew what I'd get and I appreciated the idea of bringing a model in different variations on the market.
To cut a long story short: I will buy another Mili (hopefully BG-42), one or several of the Mules and many other Spydercos in the future and of course in different steels. I will see which ones will work best for me, which will fit for my daily chores and which I will be able to sharpen, but most importantly I will enjoy everyone of them. For me, this is that what being a knifenut is all about.
I apologize if that was a lil' OT and for my English, I just had to let it out.
Take care,
Carsten
No matter how some new steels are advertised: The metallophysical processes in steel follow certain rules and these rules cannot be outwitted. Some folks keep trying to tell us that their knives are better because their steel is tougher and sharper than all the other steels from their competitors on the market.
One of the reasons I like Spyderco is the way they're doing their own thing in a down-to-earth fashion without the unnecessary stuff. I like the way they take care of their customers (e.g. Mule Team) and never lose the sense for innovation. I didn't buy a Mili D2 because of some crazy, over-the-top advertising, I bought it cause I knew what I'd get and I appreciated the idea of bringing a model in different variations on the market.
To cut a long story short: I will buy another Mili (hopefully BG-42), one or several of the Mules and many other Spydercos in the future and of course in different steels. I will see which ones will work best for me, which will fit for my daily chores and which I will be able to sharpen, but most importantly I will enjoy everyone of them. For me, this is that what being a knifenut is all about.
I apologize if that was a lil' OT and for my English, I just had to let it out.
Take care,
Carsten
It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions for vegetarianism, as long as the wolves remain of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge
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Exotic steels
When I posted this, I thought that I would get flamed (in the immortal words of Alan Treat for those of you who remember him). I was actually looking for an answer and I got it. I realize that nothing is stagnant in this world and everyone is looking for a better product but what I was trying to convey in layman's language (but didn't get it said) is that I have gutted deer with nothing more than a S&W pen knife, a SAK, a Gerber Knife etc. and they all did the job. At that time I wasn't really into knives and would have loved to have some of the Spyderco's that I now have. On second thought maybe not, I as in the heat of things I usually left my knife sticking in the nearest tree and could never find it again. In the real world I will keep using the knives that I am using and keep collecting and enjoying all the new knives that Sal and company comes up with. I like the uniqueness, the cutting edge designs, the value retention of Spyderco plus the comaraderie of the forum.
It is a great package. By the way I would literally kill for a knife like the one attached here. Unethical? Flame me. Jerry
It is a great package. By the way I would literally kill for a knife like the one attached here. Unethical? Flame me. Jerry
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- The Deacon
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I agree with Yab, there are people to whom it matters and others to whom it does not. For what I do with my knives AUS-6 would be fine. I'm certainly not a hard-core user and by his denfinition I'm not an affi. I'd rather pay for looks than performance beyond my needs. Paying $100 more for really attractive damascus would be infinitely more palatable to me than paying half that for some monochromatic super steel that will cut though 10 cinder blocks and still shave hair.
Paul
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WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
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WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
- Shenmue728
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I was just thinking about a similar topic the other day. I got an olde tyme 3 blade slip joint knife just to fiddle around with. it was in very poor condition and had some surface rust and stuff, ect. While i sharped it i realised how sharp some of the non stainless steel can get and if i really need a "stainless" steel for my daily use?
Echoing other forum members here i would agree it is purely based on your use and your desire for the "better" things in life. Weather you need it or want it are 2 different things but both work into if you buy it or not.
Echoing other forum members here i would agree it is purely based on your use and your desire for the "better" things in life. Weather you need it or want it are 2 different things but both work into if you buy it or not.
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Simple carbon steels can be a joy to use. Now that I don't spend a lot of time working on lawn irrigation systems, I carry more carbon steel. I had pretty much given it up after a few episodes of pulling a knife out of my pocket only to discover the blade covered with rust and the edge gone.
I don't believe in safe queens, only in pre-need replacements.
- Shenmue728
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Exactly my point :D I dont have my knives in harsh environments alot and if i did, I'd bag a salt series and be fine too.yablanowitz wrote:Simple carbon steels can be a joy to use. Now that I don't spend a lot of time working on lawn irrigation systems, I carry more carbon steel. I had pretty much given it up after a few episodes of pulling a knife out of my pocket only to discover the blade covered with rust and the edge gone.
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knowledge
Morales pointed out some very good information, the more you learn the more you want to learn. After a point it becomes an obsession, I think that I'm well beyond that point. "All steel is good, just different"; I'm in complete agreement with Sal on this point. It is really quite amazing that modern knife makers and companies are producing. Really only in the last ten years in this country has the tool steel industry really recognized the needs in cutlery and have actually started designing steels for cutlery. Crucible Steel's Dick Barber designed S30V. Japan has a long tradition of cutlery steel and has always maintained R&D for cutlery steels. It is not surprising that many fine cutlery steels are produced in Japan.
Knifemakers have been taking tool steel and tweaking the heat treatment for a long time. If you want to make a better knife you have to educate yourself, some of this is pure academia, some is pure empirical testing and use. With all the experimenting and knowledge that a maker puts in a knife you can never guess the extremes that the greatest varible, the ELU will do. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best ever time you sell a knife.
Everyone is unique and the challenges that each owner will subject their EDC are unique. For the same design and approximately the same tasks, two different steels might be the solution for two different users with the varibles of environment and user considered...Take care...Ed
Knifemakers have been taking tool steel and tweaking the heat treatment for a long time. If you want to make a better knife you have to educate yourself, some of this is pure academia, some is pure empirical testing and use. With all the experimenting and knowledge that a maker puts in a knife you can never guess the extremes that the greatest varible, the ELU will do. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best ever time you sell a knife.
Everyone is unique and the challenges that each owner will subject their EDC are unique. For the same design and approximately the same tasks, two different steels might be the solution for two different users with the varibles of environment and user considered...Take care...Ed