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H1 doesn't like thin edges it would seem. (pics)

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:22 pm
by Fred Sanford

First off let me say that I don't think any of this is Spyderco's fault. This all happened after I thinned out the edge "almost" flat to the stone. I would put it on the Coarse DMT and then lift it up just a little and then knock off the steel like that.

After that I used a Lansky to put a 17 degree edge on each side for a 34 degree inclusive edge bevel angle.

After finishing up I did some whittling, some cardboard cutting (about 1/4" thick) and attempted to cut/whittle some Red Oak pieces I had in my basement.

Well the end result was a bent up and chipped edge.

So I think that I'll leave the H1 Salts alone and just sharpen them at the factory angle from here on out.

I just figured I'd post in case anyone wanted to know and was thinking about taking the edge angle down on something H1.

Live and Learn... ;)





Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:28 pm
by tonydahose
:eek: ...well thanks for being the guinea pig.

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:54 am
by Dr. Snubnose
So you now have a serrated H1 knife...whats the problem?....Doc :p

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:58 am
by Lockback

How many times have you sharpened that particular knife before this test? With H1's noted property of work hardening, I wonder if you used the knife and resharpened regularly for a few months, would the results be more favorable for a thinner edge?

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:12 am
by Fred Sanford
Good question Lockback. This was the first sharpening after the factory. I thinned the edge down and then gave it a 17 degree microbevel. It would shave hair like mad after that but didn't like anything harder. I'm not sure if I should attepmt to sharpen this out or pay Spyderco to sharpen it to factory angles again. I just HATE usign the Lansky but to get a nice even edge that's what I have to do. I did freehand the DMT Stone to get the back bevel down real low but then I did the microbevel with a lansky.

Hmm....what to do....

I did buy this knife as sort of a beater/test knife for me to play around with a plain edge model in H1 since the first PE H1 model I had was a Tasman and I was not satisfied with the edge holding ability.

I wonder if I need to sharpen this knife a couple times for it to perform much better.

I guess in all honesty.....I'm sure Spyderco does this kind of research and development and laugh when they see threads like this because they think "Oh boy.....we already tried that.....remember Eric?" "This is going to be a mess." :D I guess I should leave the edge at where the factory put least for H1.

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:56 am
by cobrajoe
That is definately a result.

I was also thinking, maybe the edge could be somewhat restored if it was dragged across a sharpening steel or a very hard stone. Whatever would be bent back would then also be stronger.

Also, maybe a polished edge would have been harder?

I guess I just don't have enough experiece with H1 to know for sure.

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:45 am
by SimpleIsGood229
Thanks for the pics. :)

Firstly, I would recommend using it a bit before making it that thin. It will work-harden and do the odd things H1 does. Since friction makes it work-harden, maybe you could do all further sharpening with no more than Fine stones. There would definitely be more friction that way.

You also might try a slightly steeper microbevel. Personally, I'd put a bit thicker micro on it, and use it, rather than sending it to Golden.

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:20 pm
by Fred Sanford
Yeah I've not given up yet. Tonight I have a knife to sharpen for my buddy so I'm carrying my Centofante 4 currently. I'll get back after this Salt 1 here shortly.

Do you think I need to first straiten up the blade and chips with the DMT Coarse or would you use something less?

I don't wanna remove too much steel but right now it looks like a mess. I do like the practice of fixing messy edges.

I got practice at restoring a tip on a Para that I sold to someone that I broke the tip on. I brought the tip right back and was pretty happy for that. :D

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:37 pm
by cobrajoe
I think a finer stone would make for a better edge instead of that DMT coarse.

If I remember my materials class, cold working will make a metal harder. Therefore, just removing the metal will leave a softer edge.

I was just thinking, the best way to cold work the edge would be to use a fine stone, leading with the spine of the blade (rather than the edge) while using a fair amout of pressure. I believe this would help build a wire edge, and if you work that wire edge back and forth, you will be coldworking the metal near the edge. Then if you polish the wire edge off with a very fine stone at a slightly higher angle, you should have a fairly hard edge.

I think this sounds alright, in theory at least...

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:37 pm
by SimpleIsGood229
I would fix it with a DMT Fine. That way, the edge will work-harden more, as opposed to hogging metal off quicker than it can harden.

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:22 pm
by Fred Sanford
Well I don't have a DMT Fine.

I have a DMT Coarse, a Lansky setup, and Spyderco Profile 701 stones.

I'm thinking I'm going to run it about 5 times per side on the Coarse DMT one final time and then do the rest with the Lansky as I think it will give a more uniform bevel than the 701 Stones.

I'll stick with a 20 degree final bevel.

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:26 pm
by vivi
Thanks much for this post. I actually take my edges even thinner, and I've been considering what to purchase as my first H1 knife to try out the steel. I like having this information available before I buy.

I'll be very curious to hear how the edge does after more sharpenings.

My usual process for reprofiling a knife is to take it extremely thin (Talking thinner than an Opinel here) and test the edge whittling hardwood. Once I get the edge to where it chips, I use my DMT fine to apply a microbevel somewhere in between 30 and 40 degrees inclusive (Freehand and I've never bothered to do the math to figure out the angle) and it's good. I haven't ever seen chipping after applying the microbevel, this being done with VG10, S30V, ZDP189 and a few others so far. But as I said, no experience on my part with H1 so I'm glad to see someone else going for a performance edge and sharing their results.

I'll post some photos sometime soon of my Endura. I ground it flat to the stone to make it like a scandi ground knife. Really tested my patience doing that to a ZDP189 blade freehand on a DMT X course, rather than the XX course I own now that I've finished the regrind. :rolleyes:

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:59 pm
by ozspyder

My H1 blade took a fair few sharpenings before it seemed to hold its edge a lot better. It does seem that work hardening comes to play after a fair bit of sharpening to it. I took my H1 down to a very fine edge and it was very nice :)

I had a Salt I, but it got loaned to my local butcher for his fishing trips.... needless to say he has hogged it and I don't think I will see it come back to me any time soon. Will be getting one more next year as my abuse knife.

My advice for you now is to take it back to factory edge, work it baby, work it !!!! :p then think about re-profiling it a bit later and after a fair bit more sharpenings. It should hold up quite well after.

Thanks guinea pig :D

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:53 pm
by Fred Sanford
Ok's what I did.

First I did about 10 passes on the coarse DMT stone at about 15-17 degrees. This was really just to clean up the first bevel so that I could easily put a new micro-bevel on.

After that I got out the Lansky and made sure that all the rods were the same while the stones were sitting on a flat table. I then proceded to put a 20 degree final edge on this baby and just use it for a while.

I started off with Lansky's Red coarse stone (I don't have extra coarse). I did about 30 passes per side with the coarse stone. I did about 5 per side and then would switch to the next side and back again. Next up I used the green medium stone. I did about 20 passes with this stone per side. Looked much better after the medium stone. I then finished up with the blue fine stone. I did about 35 passes per side with this stone and then it looked just great.

After that I got out a par of blue jean "legs" that I cut off (from the thigh to the knee) that I use to strop with. I don't use any compound I simply strop back and forth lying the blade completely flat. I do this for about 3-4 minutes just calmly going back and forth. is what she looks like now. She shaves hair again and she will make small little curly pieces of thin paper if I try to whittle a piece of paper. It wouldn't do this from the factory so I'm pretty pleased.

As you can see in the last photo I did get quite a few scratches on the blade from sharpening so close to the DMT stone (almost lying all the way down). You know what thought?......I don't care. It gives the knife character and it's my knife. I am customizing my knife to how I like it. It makes it easier to use and not worry about it too. Plus......I'm learning something.

Here are some recent pics after I fixed the edge (just did this tonight).




Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:47 pm
by Lockback
Great job on cleaning up that edge. Please keep using and posting about this knife; I'm curious to see what develops.

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:27 am
by Left Hand Path
Great info here - thanks David.
Nice job fixing that edge, too.

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:27 am
by Murdoc
Lockback wrote:Great job on cleaning up that edge. Please keep using and posting about this knife; I'm curious to see what develops.
Well.... at least the first chapters are finished on this knife :D :

but if we are lucky, Tricord ends up with it and gives it a new life... that would be really a knife with a interesting history, don't you think?


Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:47 pm
by bladese97
:spyder: :spyder: :cool: :spyder: :spyder:I've been wanting to do something like that to my Tasman/pe, but don't think I have the skills to do a good job, and it is sharp enough for me. :) AWESOME work Mr. Lowry :cool: :)

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:34 pm
by Fred Sanford
Thanks for all the compliments folks. As of right now this knife was destroyed by a Bobcat (the piece of heavy equipment). It is headed to Brad Southard (Tricod) to see what he can do with it. I told Brad to keep it no matter what he gets done with it.

See my other thread about "warranty issue". :D

Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:21 pm
by SimpleIsGood229
I'm really curious as to what Brad can do with it.