I first heard of the Stealth when a gunsmith buddy of mine showed me one & spoke well of it.Later 'Combat Handguns' had an article on gas-locked handguns & compared the Steath quite favorably to the H&K P7(!!).Hoosierdaddy I agree:you get what you pay for,but the best equipment in the world is useless to you if you can't get it.Hence my comments on cost.Raven.25's,Lorcen.32's & Schrade knives from WallyWorld have their place.I most certainly advocate purchasing the best available,but see no reason to buy a $74,000 Merceedes SUV when a $25,000 Chevy will do the same job.gadfly:Interesting post.
FYI the M-59 S&W was the cause for Phil Engledrum's 'Handgun Tests'&'Pistolero'magazines:he claimed to have bought one & it jammed like crazy while a $75 Raven.25 went'Bang!'each time he pulled the trigger.What killed the .41 Mag was that most people used the huntig load that was right up there with the .44 Mag instead of the much lighter police load in the .44 Special class.The March 2001'Combat Handguns'has an article on the Taurus.41 in titanium(& if you're not reading CH you should,if nothing else for Massad Ayoob's"Self-Defense & the Law"column).I must admit when I started this thread my preferance was for the Glock:this has not changed altho I refer y'all to my earlier post about my ex-wife's Baretta Brigader(ya can't argue with a fact*G*).Again I apprecieate the feedback & manners all respondants have made in this thread:much food for thought!
Off-Topic:Glock vs Beretta
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Hoosierdaddy
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Ca. USA
Earthworm,
Not to continue the arguement but come on... you can't begin to compare a Chevy SUV to a Mercedes! Sure they may look similar but the real difference is the protection they provide. Just like a weapon... Mercedes pioneered airbags, and their chassis developement is second to none. If you were in an accident (rollover type) with your family in the Chevy versus the Mercedes I would hope you would choose the latter! I've worked on a few Mercedes and ten years ago I was amazed at the strenght of their cars! For the most part if you never got in an accident the Chevy would be sufficeint... although buying the Mercedes would give you protection AND piece of mind if in the event of an accident! The same with a firearm, I'm not familiar with the Stealth and won't comment on it. I was just saying be weary, and choose a good firearm! Sorry to get off topic and ramble on.
Gadfly,
I was not trying to "trash talk" your 59, it's just a lot of people don't know of the 39/59 problems. That's why S&W went to second gen. 439/459 639/659 series... if it was a good design they would have stuck with it. Which makes you wonder why they went to 3rd gen. I just don't want you to rely on that thing at a crucial moment!
You have to remember Gun mags. will often praise something even if it's not good... for their best interest $$$! When a Gun mag. writes negative feedback claiming the gun is a pile of *#@% rest assured they don't want to get sued up the wazoo, as Gun companies have more lawyers and money to go after relatively small time publishers.
Not to continue the arguement but come on... you can't begin to compare a Chevy SUV to a Mercedes! Sure they may look similar but the real difference is the protection they provide. Just like a weapon... Mercedes pioneered airbags, and their chassis developement is second to none. If you were in an accident (rollover type) with your family in the Chevy versus the Mercedes I would hope you would choose the latter! I've worked on a few Mercedes and ten years ago I was amazed at the strenght of their cars! For the most part if you never got in an accident the Chevy would be sufficeint... although buying the Mercedes would give you protection AND piece of mind if in the event of an accident! The same with a firearm, I'm not familiar with the Stealth and won't comment on it. I was just saying be weary, and choose a good firearm! Sorry to get off topic and ramble on.
Gadfly,
I was not trying to "trash talk" your 59, it's just a lot of people don't know of the 39/59 problems. That's why S&W went to second gen. 439/459 639/659 series... if it was a good design they would have stuck with it. Which makes you wonder why they went to 3rd gen. I just don't want you to rely on that thing at a crucial moment!
You have to remember Gun mags. will often praise something even if it's not good... for their best interest $$$! When a Gun mag. writes negative feedback claiming the gun is a pile of *#@% rest assured they don't want to get sued up the wazoo, as Gun companies have more lawyers and money to go after relatively small time publishers.
HoosierDaddy;I think you missed my point.No doubt the Merceedes is superior to the Chevy but if you can't afford it it's useless to you.Same with guns:the $100 Raven in your pocket beats the $850 Para Ord.you gaze longing at at the gun shop.**** right I'd rather have the Para!But if all I can afford is the Raven should I sneer @ it & go naked?
Balance in all things:cost,quality,etc.
My gunsmith friend has the Steath & a Beretta 92:I await his prices.A new Glock 19 is $570.Cheapest used factory hi-caps I've found is $99(which I'm willing to pay).The same frame Glock in .40 is comparable in price:?anyone seen hi-caps for it?Or for the 21 in .45? BTW michael frank:a buddy of mine who's a deputy sheriff & Glock armorer says while the 30 will take the 21 mags the 30 uses a double recoil spring & the slide is so fast it can jam with the hi-cap mag unless the mag spring is strong.Calling GlockDoc!Opinion,please.
Balance in all things:cost,quality,etc.
My gunsmith friend has the Steath & a Beretta 92:I await his prices.A new Glock 19 is $570.Cheapest used factory hi-caps I've found is $99(which I'm willing to pay).The same frame Glock in .40 is comparable in price:?anyone seen hi-caps for it?Or for the 21 in .45? BTW michael frank:a buddy of mine who's a deputy sheriff & Glock armorer says while the 30 will take the 21 mags the 30 uses a double recoil spring & the slide is so fast it can jam with the hi-cap mag unless the mag spring is strong.Calling GlockDoc!Opinion,please.
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Hoosierdaddy
- Member
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- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Ca. USA
Earthworm,
You weren't real clear on your point, you said "I most certainly advocate purchasing the best available,but see no reason to buy a $74,000 Merceedes SUV when a $25,000 Chevy will do the same job". You didn't say you couldn't afford the Mercedes only the Chevy would do the same job, that is were I disagree. The guns from Raven, Lorcen, Bryco, Phoenix (Psesco),and Jennings I would not classify as weapons. They are cheap and problematic (both in cycling reliability and breakage!) pistols that would inflict more harm by throwing rather than shooting them. The P7 H&K I doubt is in the same category as the Stealth! (Eclipse- Zach where are you) I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative... you asked for opinions and here we (all forumites) are.
The .45 is a very old Caliber (not that it's not good) it has the same stopping power as the .40 but with heavier grain bullets and larger cases. That is why I think .40 is the best Pistol Caliber.
The U.S. Military would probably go .40 but it's not a "N.A.T.O." Caliber, everything is already chambered for the 9mm with more options on guns ie H&K 94 (MP5)
You weren't real clear on your point, you said "I most certainly advocate purchasing the best available,but see no reason to buy a $74,000 Merceedes SUV when a $25,000 Chevy will do the same job". You didn't say you couldn't afford the Mercedes only the Chevy would do the same job, that is were I disagree. The guns from Raven, Lorcen, Bryco, Phoenix (Psesco),and Jennings I would not classify as weapons. They are cheap and problematic (both in cycling reliability and breakage!) pistols that would inflict more harm by throwing rather than shooting them. The P7 H&K I doubt is in the same category as the Stealth! (Eclipse- Zach where are you) I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative... you asked for opinions and here we (all forumites) are.
The .45 is a very old Caliber (not that it's not good) it has the same stopping power as the .40 but with heavier grain bullets and larger cases. That is why I think .40 is the best Pistol Caliber.
The U.S. Military would probably go .40 but it's not a "N.A.T.O." Caliber, everything is already chambered for the 9mm with more options on guns ie H&K 94 (MP5)
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Bill Burns
- Member
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Colorado Springs USA
Go with the Glock. I am a LEO and I have three of them, the 22 (issue) a 23 (personal and duty weapon for about 5+ years) and a 27 that is my current carry weapon (I'm a detective). Carried a .40 cal Browning Hi-Power for a short time, good gun, but hammer bite was a problem and I couldn't keep a front night sight on it. 40 cal is definitely the way to go....only a minor loss in mag capacity and a ballistically better round.
Hi there earthworm
In my humble opinion I would most definatley go for the Glock (Glock 19) the subcompact version might be a good choice. I currently carry the Glock 23 which is exactly the same dimensions as the Glock 19 except that it is a .40 S&W caliber. You might even want to consider going for a .40 as opposed to a 9mm - It is an excellent self defense round !!!
RobertC
In my humble opinion I would most definatley go for the Glock (Glock 19) the subcompact version might be a good choice. I currently carry the Glock 23 which is exactly the same dimensions as the Glock 19 except that it is a .40 S&W caliber. You might even want to consider going for a .40 as opposed to a 9mm - It is an excellent self defense round !!!
RobertC
Ok my 2 cents worth <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Mr MaNcEr thinks highly of berettas, but..........as far as guns go, I reckon Glock is what Spyderco is to the knife world.
They light, so **** reliable its scary.
beutiful guns, Im getting (hoping) for my gun license to go through soon, will be getting myself the Glock 21 (.45)
Only bad thing is the bullets I love (Winchestor Black Talon) have been discontinued Ive read, yeah I wanna cry <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Why stop production of such a awsome round I cannot understand, infact are there any of you guys who know why production was stopped?
Well yeah, as I said, go for the glock, the mags may not be easy to come across in your part of the world, but remember, when you need that piece, the glock WILL NOT let you down, just like my spyderco's <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Good luck
MaNcEr
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum
Mr MaNcEr thinks highly of berettas, but..........as far as guns go, I reckon Glock is what Spyderco is to the knife world.
They light, so **** reliable its scary.
beutiful guns, Im getting (hoping) for my gun license to go through soon, will be getting myself the Glock 21 (.45)
Only bad thing is the bullets I love (Winchestor Black Talon) have been discontinued Ive read, yeah I wanna cry <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Why stop production of such a awsome round I cannot understand, infact are there any of you guys who know why production was stopped?
Well yeah, as I said, go for the glock, the mags may not be easy to come across in your part of the world, but remember, when you need that piece, the glock WILL NOT let you down, just like my spyderco's <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Good luck
MaNcEr
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum
MaNcEr:The Black Talon was replaced by the Golden Saber.Marshall rates the Federal 230 Hydra-Shok #1,the the Remington 185 Golden Saber #2 with the 230 Golden Saber #5(GunWorld,March 2001).I tend to test my carry loads & prefer accuracy over horsepower(& if I do go auto add reliability of function to that).I'm hearing(& not just here)that the .40 is more accurate than the 9;assuming equal guns & the shooter does his part.?Feedback?
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aero_student
- Member
- Posts: 735
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Folsom, CA, USA, Earth USA
My $.02?
I too live in the deep south. I own an airweight bodyguard and a Kahr MK9 Elite 98 for summer and deep carry. The Kahr usually gets the nod for EDC: more rounds on tap, faster reload (always an extra mag on my off side) and it's incredibly comfortable and accurate.
Face it, you're not going to be able to hide either of your first choices under a t-shirt, but the Kahr will with the right carry rig. You might also look at their new poly frame models; they're lighter and only a little larger than the MK.
As an aside, the Beretta high cap magazines are interchangable between the 9mm and the .40.
stay safe
Edited by - wayfarer on 1/22/2002 3:59:49 PM
I too live in the deep south. I own an airweight bodyguard and a Kahr MK9 Elite 98 for summer and deep carry. The Kahr usually gets the nod for EDC: more rounds on tap, faster reload (always an extra mag on my off side) and it's incredibly comfortable and accurate.
Face it, you're not going to be able to hide either of your first choices under a t-shirt, but the Kahr will with the right carry rig. You might also look at their new poly frame models; they're lighter and only a little larger than the MK.
As an aside, the Beretta high cap magazines are interchangable between the 9mm and the .40.
stay safe
Edited by - wayfarer on 1/22/2002 3:59:49 PM
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Hoosierdaddy
- Member
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Ca. USA
Wayfarer,
I believe the Beretta 92 and 96 have interchangeable slides. I know the mags are the same dimensions. I thought a few years back Beretta offered a pistol with both slides and mags. 9mm and .40 that would give you the best of both worlds, 9mm for affordability and .40 for effective stopping power. I ran across a Ram Line 18 rd. mag. for the 92, this would be 18+1 for 19 total. Not to bad but it's still only 9mm.
The guy I purchased my 96 from gave me 2 twenty round boxes of Black Talons, I'll save those for a rainy day.
I believe the Beretta 92 and 96 have interchangeable slides. I know the mags are the same dimensions. I thought a few years back Beretta offered a pistol with both slides and mags. 9mm and .40 that would give you the best of both worlds, 9mm for affordability and .40 for effective stopping power. I ran across a Ram Line 18 rd. mag. for the 92, this would be 18+1 for 19 total. Not to bad but it's still only 9mm.
The guy I purchased my 96 from gave me 2 twenty round boxes of Black Talons, I'll save those for a rainy day.
earthworm,
Sorry I took so long to get to you, been up to my rump in alligators.
The nine is fine. I met a coupla West German Police officers over here on vacation a few years ago. One of them had been hospitalized with multiple stab wounds recieved during an altercation with some really bad people. He was already down before he could get to his side arm (Walther P5, in a full flap holster!) Two shots with Hertenberger 100gr FMJ and he had two dead bodies on top of him. The rest fled before backup arrived. The man, not the round, makes the difference.
Also, the only guns I have ever broken were the Colt Python (firing pin) and the Beretta (trigger spring).
My 1989 G17 is still going strong after an untold number of rounds and even though I have plenty of parts I have never used anything but recoil springs on any of the guns I've worked on.
My $.02
GD
Edited by - GlockDoc on 1/17/2002 7:33:35 PM
Edited by - GlockDoc on 1/17/2002 7:35:06 PM
Sorry I took so long to get to you, been up to my rump in alligators.
The nine is fine. I met a coupla West German Police officers over here on vacation a few years ago. One of them had been hospitalized with multiple stab wounds recieved during an altercation with some really bad people. He was already down before he could get to his side arm (Walther P5, in a full flap holster!) Two shots with Hertenberger 100gr FMJ and he had two dead bodies on top of him. The rest fled before backup arrived. The man, not the round, makes the difference.
Also, the only guns I have ever broken were the Colt Python (firing pin) and the Beretta (trigger spring).
My 1989 G17 is still going strong after an untold number of rounds and even though I have plenty of parts I have never used anything but recoil springs on any of the guns I've worked on.
My $.02
GD
Edited by - GlockDoc on 1/17/2002 7:33:35 PM
Edited by - GlockDoc on 1/17/2002 7:35:06 PM
Update:"He who hesitates is lost"....or at least loses his new-gun money to trifling things like hospital bills(minor emergency;no permanant damage) & car repairs.*Sigh* Oh well I guess I need the kid & car more than a new gun*G*.Reckon my old faithful Bodyguard'll just have keep doing its job.But the input has been most interesting & valuable,to say the least:thanks all.
