should spyderco outsource to China?

[AllenETreat]

I originally posted this in the off topic section, but I believe
it'll serve some purpose here as well...

I have a tenacious on order. And while I'm ambivalent about
communist China I was wondering if any of you feel :spyder:
should outsource all of it's products to China.

I haven't gotten the tenacious in my hands yet, but feel the
quality will still be on the par, as always. But should :spyder:
outsource to China in it's entirety?

One benefit would be : lower co$t to both :spyder: and hopefully
the ELU.

I know all those reincarnated samurais out there will balk and
demand the work still be done out of Japan, but let's face it :
:spyder: has to compete with alot of the companies that have
already begun outsourcing to China.

There is the byrd line already, but with the advent of the tenacious :spyder: testing
the waters with us, so whattaya say gang?


AET

[anthonyc]

nah, bad idea

[TazKristi]

Just to be clear, we (Spyderco) have no intention of outsourcing our entire product line to China (or any one country for that matter). Here is Sal's original post regarding the Tenacious. It's existence has nothing to do with testing the waters. Let's leave any political discussions out of this please.

Kristi

There seems to be some questions that have already come up regarding the “Tenacious” model. Apparently a PDR consumer catalog accidentally went out with some customer service orders and information has been circulating in our forums about some of the models. The Tenacious being one.

The Tenacious is a “round hole” Spyderco brand model that is made in Mainland China.

While the “general” market could care less about where a model is made, I felt that I owed an explanation to the forumites that frequent our forums.

As most of you know, Spyderco has avoided making any Spyderco brand models in Mainland China. I have personally fought this for many years. We created and developed the entire line of “byrd” brand for that purpose. Those of you that own byrd” models know the quality and designs are quite nice, especially considering the price.

We have decided that we will have to make at least one “round hole” Spyderco model in China. It was something that we had hoped to avoid, but circumstances have forced the issue. Reasons include:

1. All of our competitors are building in China (Buck, Gerber, Columbia River, Benchmade, Cold Steel, Kershaw, etc.) using their trade names. (I think we are the last “hold out”). Major customers (chains) have been asking us to compete in that arena and they feel that our “inexpensive” models (Endura, Delica, etc.) are too expensive to compete.

2. The large chains require large volume and will not tolerate missing or delaying shipments. Our current makers of Spyderco brand models do not have the capacity to service these large customers. Even our own factory in Golden has to push hard to service Wal-Mart with the one model they carry (the Native).

3. The small specialty cutlery shops are shrinking regularly, I think because of the internet and the big chains. This leaves fewer customers capable of stocking and selling the more expensive Spyderco’s.

4. One of the reasons is that there is another knife company making “round hole” models in China and we must compete against our own “look” that are being sold at much lower prices. Looking like Spyderco is popular these days.

I imagine some of you might hate me for going in this direction, (my apologies JD). Some of you will not care. Some of you will understand and not hold it against us. It will help us survive in a very competitive environment.

The “Tenacious” is an “in-house” design that Eric and I created. It is a 3.25” blade, Walker Linerlock. G-10 scales, dual Skeletonized full liners. 4 way clip with all screw construction. Full flat grind. The edge is sharp to the handle. Steel on this intro model is 8Cr13MoV.

We worked on the design and with the maker for over a year, continually refining until we were satisfied that we had a highly functional, ergonomic, strong, safe package, and we can deliver high volume if called for.

We hope it will compete favorably. MSRP is under $50.

We will try to post some pics later today.

sal

[RLR]

No, and Spyderco should NOT produce China stamped knives in its "Spyderco" line. Byrd is China and that's fine, but do not dilute the Spyderco name. US/Japan and that's it. That's my opinion. The Tenacious is the first step on a slippery slope I think. I don't want to find out where that slope leads to, so I ain't taking the ride.

[Bolster]

Just to be clear, we (Spyderco) have no intention of outsourcing our entire product line to China (or any one country for that matter)... It's existence has nothing to do with testing the waters....Kristi

Kristi, thank you for the assurance that the entire Spyderco product line won't be outsourced to China. That said, any prediction of how much of it will be? 20%? 50%? 80%?

[Huck]

No, I have a Tenacious and I love it, but I also own some of the other models and with most I can see & feel the quality is better than the Tenacious plus I trust them more & feel that because of being made in the U.S. they will be worth more now & down the line. The Tenacious is great value & I will grab it & use it for anything & not worry about ruining a $100 plus knife. But I have no problem with an occasional model being made in China & it may help a younger person or someone on a fixed income get a quality knife for little $s.

[Fred Sanford]

Oh no...bad idea

[Agent Starling]

Thanks for posting Sal's email again, Kristi. :spyder:

You know, gang, while I have admittedly been ambivalent on this matter, after re-reading Sal's post a few thoughts came to mind:

1. What is being done is out of necessity, and not the company's first choice. My impression is that they held out as long as was feasible.
2. Sal does not owe us an explanation for how he runs his company; yet, he has very kindly offered to let us know some of his thoughts.
3. It's not easy to own your own business, even if successful, and to keep it successful year after year. Most of my family is in business for themselves, so I have a good understanding of this. Business is business; idealism doesn't make it float.

Just my $0.02...with inflation, probably worth a fraction of that. :)

Agent Starling :D

[SoCal Operator]

A knife should be made where it will be made best. Italy, Switzerland, Colorado, Seki, Taiwan, etc. By no means should the entire operation be moved to any one country, and I don't think it ever will.

[Shike]

Quality! Will the quality we have come to expect from :spyder: be there? This is one of the reasons why I hardly ever buy products from those other companies. Just my 2 cents.

[Hookpunch]

Just wondering what the problem is with China? Is it outsourcing of jobs? Or is it a quality control issue?

The SALTs are made in Japan and I don't recall anyone starting a thread on that.

My personal view is that I love my Spydies made in America (or Japan), but if they cannot compete with the other knife makers due to labour costs then Spydies might disappear or be relegated to a boutique knife maker.

I have an Ernie Ball guitar , it took almost a year to get it because Ernie Ball refused to outsource to Japan in the 90s whereas I could have picked up an Ibanez the day I walked into the guitar store. Are you willing to wait a year to get a Spydie? I might wait a year but then hardly anyone else in the market except us Spydie fanatics would.

It is a harsh reality of globalization

[Shike]

But what happens when a company starts to loose customers because they feel the quality is not there?

[Hookpunch]

But what happens when a company starts to loose customers because they feel the quality is not there?

Good point and it is a fine line to walk. On the other hand, since every other company has outsourced then what are our options? Are you going to shift over to Benchmade ....well they are already in China doing the same thing.

I guess we could try machining our own knives.

I am not arguing , I am not thrilled at this development, but I can't see a choice for Spyderco, the Wal-Marts of the world end up winning.

I can see that for the faithfull there will be a choice (which we will pay a premium for), made in USA Spydies and other Spydies.

[carrot]

No. While the Tenacious' build quality is admirable and even up to par with the Spyderco name, the mere fact that China has such a bad mindspace in America should preclude Spyderco from moving their entire production over there.

On top of that, to do so would be to break ties that Spyderco has had for decades with the incredible Japanese knifemakers who make countless models, and VG-10 is a restricted export -- AFAIK, it can only be exported as a finished knife. F&F on the Japanese Spydercos are generally very, very good, and it will probably take many more years for the Chinese makers to get to the level of finish we see in a knife like the Caly3.

Golden, it seems, has a knack for doing the high tech stuff -- notice that the "best" linerlock from Spyderco is the Millie, with its radiused tang and its impressive skeletonized nested liners. It seems custom makers hate making scales that use nested liners, and only one regularly offers them for a production knife -- the Wilkins Griptilian scales -- and these sell for hundreds of dollars. Spyderco's Golden factory appears to be the only one that can pull off G-10 with nested liners at affordable prices and high precision. Sal has also mentioned that the compression lock is extremely difficult to do and needs to be made very precisely in order to work properly; I believe I remember this being mentioned when someone asked about licensing out the compression lock to custom makers. Every compression lock knife I know of, except the Salsa and the S, are, or were made in Golden. Again, given some time, the Chinese could do it -- the Salsa and S certainly prove that Spyderco's offshore makers can do some serious high-tech stuff, but why bother moving everything offshore, when the Golden facility is definitely up to snuff and allows Spyderco designers to quickly get new prototypes made?

As I see it, Spyderco's business model is perfect -- by designing knives and farming out the production to different facilities, they are not limited by any one facility's weaknesses and can appropriately make use of each of the facilities' strengths.

[Shike]

Good point and it is a fine line to walk. On the other hand, since every other company has outsourced then what are our options? Are you going to shift over to Benchmade ....well they are already in China doing the same thing.

I guess we could try machining our own knives.

I am not arguing , I am not thrilled at this development, but I can't see a choice for Spyderco, the Wal-Marts of the world end up winning.

I can see that for the faithfull there will be a choice (which we will pay a premium for), made in USA Spydies and other Spydies.

It is a tough one and as much as we might hate to admit it, us forumites are but a tiny fraction of the :spyder: consumer market, a market that probably is not as technically oriented, as many here are, and probably wouldn't care where the knife was made , and then again you would be surprised........I was talking to a friend who just joined the forum recently and we both agreed and remember going to knife shows (Custom knife shows) and the knife most carried by and far by most of the makers was a Spyderco. We are going back a few years now. No smoke, real stuff, asking people what is in your pocket right now????? The vast majority......... :spyder: Why you asked them? The reply was always the same......Quality!

[Bolster]

I'm glad to see that, so far in this thread, most pro-China posters are not attributing pro-American, pro-Japanese, and pro-Euro sentiment to prejudice, bias & xenophobia. Those are fatuous, asinine attributions. There are perfectly sound reasons to resist Chinese manufacture that have nothing to do with politically incorrect attitudes or racial bias.

Central among these is the quality issue. While I own a few high-quality Chinese products (such as the emitters found in my Fenix and Zebra lights), most Chinese products I own are of low quality, purchased at low price, created by fellow humans who earn low wages, and work and live in conditions I would not want to. Thus I experience a great deal of cognitive dissonance when purchasing low-cost Chinese items, and prefer to have fewer quality items (some of which are Chinese!), for which I pay more.

Question: Why doesn't Spyderco go to China to produce their top-of-the-line models, if Chinese quality is not an issue? Why the lowest priced Spyder?

The other fatuous argument that you see in support of cheap knives is the victo-cratic "the poor people can afford them" argument. I don't buy the argument that Americans are going without knives because they can't afford them, and therefore it's morally correct to make cheaper and cheaper knives. That argument makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

[Shike]

Again, given some time, the Chinese could do it -- the Salsa and S certainly prove that Spyderco's offshore makers can do some serious high-tech stuff, but why bother moving everything offshore, when the Golden facility is definitely up to snuff and allows Spyderco designers to quickly get new prototypes made?

As I see it, Spyderco's business model is perfect -- by designing knives and farming out the production to different facilities, they are not limited by any one facility's weaknesses and can appropriately make use of each of the facilities' strengths.

The Chinese can do it right now. Let me go back a few years as I am an old fart compared to most of the folks here. Back in the sixties nobody wanted to have anything that came from Japan because we thought it was all junk. Knives included.... the thought was that the Japanese could not make a good knife to save their back sides. Yeahhhhh :rolleyes: Never mind the fact that they made the best knives (Tantos) and swords (Katanas) the world had ever seen. No sir they just could not make a good knife. BS! We didn't want them to! We wanted cheap stuff made and we took it to them and said can you make this stuff for this price? And they did. They could have made the good stuff also but that is not what we wanted from them. Same thing is happenning with China. I suppose given the right equipment and motivation$$$$$ any country can produce quality......well almost :D but I will keep that comment to meself. Okay, I am off the soap box now :p :D
Best regards

Shike

[Michael Bolton]

Obviously, many American companies and a variety of industries are utilizing China to stay competitive in their respective markets. It's inevitable and perfectly natural, no?

I have no doubt that whatever Spyderco has to do to in order to remain competitive, that quality will absolutely not be compromised. When companies with a reputation for quality in materials and design find that production in a lower-cost environment becomes necessary, people go the extra mile to make sure that what they produce doesn't just meet the standards of a domestically produced product, but try to exceed those standards that they have set for themselves.

One example that comes to mind is that because of the complex nature of his work, the cartoonist Chris Ware will travel to China to consult with and personally oversee the printers to ensure that his publications are of the highest quality. The end product is really out of this world. Some people argue about the working conditions in China, low wages, etc. These are poignant arguments but we have to remember that this is not a static economy, marketplace, etc. We'll be having this discussion in twenty years and debating on whether or not X-American-knife-company company should be doing any production in a different country and not just America-Japan-China..

[Bolster]

Back in the sixties nobody wanted to have anything that came from Japan because we thought it was all junk. Knives included.... the thought was that the Japanese could not make a good knife to save their back sides.

I'm an old guy, too, into knives since before time, and I don't recall anybody saying that. The Japanese were always regarded as having a long tradition of excellence in swords and edged weapons.

I think you're arguing that the Chinese have the potential to make top quality knives. OK, no argument there, ANY nation has the potential, but I'm more interested in the "here and now" and proven track records of quality.

I have no doubt that whatever Spyderco has to do to in order to remain competitive, that quality will absolutely not be compromised.

Well, you could argue it already has been. The Tenacious uses a linerlock (the least expensive type of lock, with an inconsistent reputation overall) and 8Cr13MoV steel (a lower graded steel in Spyderco's current lineup) and posters to this thread have already commented that the Tenacious has lower fit and finish overall. The Tenacious was designed to be inexpensive, and competitive with other inexpensive knives; Sal himself says as much. When you design for low cost, more compromises are inevitable.

Again, if Chinese-made is top quality, why isn't Spyderco using China to make its best, most expensive knives?

[Michael Bolton]

I am speaking more in an abstract way, speaking more to Spyderco's quality and design and how highly they are regarded and how strong their fan-base is.

What's wrong with a strong-as-balls linerlock? I have never had a lock fail on me, then again I have never done anything crazily out the with my knife like forcibly trying to break the lock..

I don't own a Tenacious, but stating that lower cost means compromise is certainly not a true statement. If I'm getting T shirts silk screened in New York City for $5 bucks a shirt from skilled silk screeners, but I meet some guys in China that I trust that are just as good and will do it for $1 a shirt, what compromises have I made?

Do you think Spyderco can produce a lower cost model using the same more-expensive materials?

If Spyderco makes a less expensive knife utilizing "a lower graded steel in Spyderco's current lineup", utilizing a "the least expensive type of lock, with an inconsistent reputation overall", and marketing it as their lower-end Spyderco, I don't believe there is any flaw in their description or reputation. I'm not sure what your beef is here. Your argument is a touch on the flawed end of the spectrum IMHO.

Well, you could argue it already has been. The Tenacious uses a linerlock (the least expensive type of lock, with an inconsistent reputation overall) and 8Cr13MoV steel (a lower graded steel in Spyderco's current lineup). The Tenacious was designed to be inexpensive, and competitive with other inexpensive knives; Sal himself says as much. When you design for low cost, more compromises are inevitable.

Again, if Chinese-made is top quality, why isn't Spyderco using China to make its best, most expensive knives?