gscreely wrote:The truth is some steels are just plain better than others and it would be both fair and accurate to call them an upgrade, if that were not true spyderco would still be using gin-1.
There is no such thing, ZDP-189 has a very low edge stability, corrosion resistance and toughness compared to 8Cr13MoV.
All good just different. It still comes down to "what are you using it for?" and sometimes more importantly "how much do you want to pay?"
I think the 8Cr13MoV is an awesome value.
I'm no scientist nor do I intentionally test my knives for comparison. All I know is what I've witnessed with my own knives cutting whatever needs cutting in my day to day life. I own a meadowlark and a tenacious pe. They haven't had the workouts that some of my other spydies have had so I can't fairly comment on the longevity of the edge on these two little beauties, but what I can say is this. I sharpened both on the 204 which is one of the first things I usually do ( I find sharpening knives relaxing) and they take a really sharp edge in my opinion. Went camping last year and forgot one of my bags at home, the one with my knives in it of course . The only knife I had to use for food prep was the meadowlark. A little small for some tasks I must admit but that thing was a friggin' laser. My buddy was slicing some tomatoes and couldn't get over how it slim the slices he could make were. He still talks about it to this day anytime we're in the kitchen. They may not be designer steel packin', carbon fiber handled show peices, but I personally trust them to get me through the day anytime. :)
-Steph
-"How many of those spyder thingies do you really need? "-my girlfriend-
_ SERENITY NOW!!!!!- Frank Costanza
In a purely technical way Cliff is exactly correct. On the other hand, as a user with needs fit to my uses, there are better and worse steels for me. But Cliff is Right. And So am I. :)
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
Once you define the qualities being evaluated and how they are measured, then sure, you can say what is better. Misinformation however sets in with then conclusions are stated without ever defining the reasoning. 420HC has a much higher corrosion resistance, edge stability and toughness than ZDP-189. Is it better? Yes, if those are things you want.
I agree that an "upgraded steel" phrase is often contextual incorrect. Where I am in disagreement is to say that you can not call one steel an upgrade over an other. If all the cards are on the table in terms of the application and context some steels out perform others.
I agree with your point at it root, and "upgrade" is often a misused term. My point is simply to say that to say you can not accurately call one steel an upgrade over an other is overstating your point.
As for 8Cr13Mov I used my Tenacious all week for a home repair missions project. I like the knife design and feel the steel is the knifes weakest link. That said it did perform ok under rather abusive circumstances, and sharpened up nicely.
The edge did roll, however I was opening a can with it. 8Cr13Mov appears to have similar edge retention of AUS8, but not as much corrosion resistance IMO.
Yes, once the application is specified and the measures defined then you can rank steels, just like you can rank the knives themselves. ZDP-189 for example has a much higher wear resistance than 8Cr13MoV, this means that when a low sharpness is desired for a long time then it will be the superior choice as once the edge has thickened to the points the carbides are stable, the edge wears essentially like chromium carbide which is much harder than the martensite of 8Cr13Mov.
I think that technically, Cliff is correct. That's why I generally avoid saying that one "anything" is "better" than another "anything". Better being a relative term. "All good, just different". Every steel has some advantage in some application.
For the purposes of discussion, then what is an "upgrade"?
In the world of blades, one elusive pinnacle has always been edge retention. That which stays sharper longer. Afer all, the edge IS the knife isn't it? The blade supports the edge, the handle controls the edge. Without the edge, is the knife really a knife?
Creating steels with superior edge retention has always been a challenge in the knife industry. In the area of edge retention, going from a steel with an "X" amount of abrasion resistance, given the edge geometry, to a steel with a greater, or X+1 amount of abrasion resistance, because of a new development, would be considered an "upgrade" in edge retention, would it not?
Creating corrosion resistant cutting materials has also been an elusive pinnacle. A steel like H-1 which does not corrode (for who knows how long?) and still has good edge retention would be considered an "upgrade" in corrosion resistant cutting materials, would it not?
If the goal is to be light and strong, going from a knife that weighs "X" at a given strength and cutting horsepower, to a knife that weighs X-1 would be an upgrade in the perceived goal, would it not?
I read a lot about this steel cause I really love it. I wondered how the composition of it was and it kinda surprised me that 8Cr13MoV is not on Spyderco's own steel chart. That didn't happen intentionally, did it?
It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions for vegetarianism, as long as the wolves remain of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge
Morales wrote:I read a lot about this steel cause I really love it. I wondered how the composition of it was and it kinda surprised me that 8Cr13MoV is not on Spyderco's own steel chart. That didn't happen intentionally, did it?
We have had the steel listed on our steel chart since we began using it. How old is your steel chart?
It is not as much of a name but more a code of its contends.
The 8 is the amount of carbon, 0.8%.
Cr is chromium and 13%, so it is a stainless steel.
MoV means it has also some molybdenum and vanadium.
So it gives you quite a good idea of what you got.
Thanks for your quick reply, Sal, the steel chart I meant was the one online under Edge-U-Cation. Maybe something on my computer isn't working as it should be, but I can't find 8Cr13MoV there. If it's there, I just don't see it.. :confused:
And thank you Piet, I found the composition later on Cliff's page. You're right, almost everything one needs to know is already in the steel's name itself.
It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions for vegetarianism, as long as the wolves remain of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge
I have had a FRN Robin ,se since it has come out maybe a year and a half. I take it to work every day and beat it to death. I cut open shipping straps from overseas containers 1 minute and cut rope or boxes or paper. I fixed my sons hockey helmet with it using the blade as a screw driver and chiped it. Then free handed it on my lansky untill it was super dull, bought a sharp maker and just brought it back to push cutting paper. I am getting a G-10 handeled crow because i need a little bit more handel length. But the steel is solid and i keep it oiled so corrosion dosent really affect it.
Morales wrote:I read a lot about this steel cause I really love it. I wondered how the composition of it was and it kinda surprised me that 8Cr13MoV is not on Spyderco's own steel chart. That didn't happen intentionally, did it?
Hi sal,
you're welcome, but it wasn't a big deal for me anyway. I thought I just mention it, cause sometimes these mistakes can happen. I don't have a Spyderco catalog, but I already know which Spydies I want next, so not having a catalog eases the pain a little. :D I don't have to think bout the knives all the time.
Keep up the good work, you and your company are outstanding!
It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions for vegetarianism, as long as the wolves remain of a different opinion. William Ralph Inge
I'm not impressed with this steel at all. I've been EDCing my Delica since 2001. I misplaced it in March and so I bought a Tenacious to take its place. I only carried the Tenacious for about 3 weeks and used it maybe 20 times or so, cutting nylon straps and some cardboard. The teeth however, have rolled over in that short time of light use. Fortunately, my Delica turned up (my 55 year-old aunt stole it while visiting my house...she hates me). I've used the Delica more harshly for seven years, yet the ATS-55 has never let me down or failed in any way. Good thing 8Cr13MoV isn't my first :spyder: or else it would have been my only and last Spyderco experience. As for the teeth failure issue, does anybody know how I can fix the blade?
Delica on on top, Tenacious underneath.
Close-up of bent teeth.
I don't like the scratched up black paint on the clips, so I used some paint remover on the Delica. I think it looks better in silver.
The steel that's bent has to go. That's a lot of sharpening. I'd send it in to Spyderco and pay to have it done, unless you enjoy taking the time to sharpen it up yourself. Joe
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
. The only knife I had to use for food prep was the meadowlark. A little small for some tasks I must admit but that thing was a friggin' laser. My buddy was slicing some tomatoes and couldn't get over how it slim the slices he could make were. He still talks about it to this day anytime we're in the kitchen. They may not be designer steel packin', carbon fiber handled show peices, but I personally trust them to get me through the day anytime. :)
