Environmental Impact of your knife

[kenzan]

Hello all=-
I have been lurking and reading a lot of the love that is given to these knives. I myself have had a monogamous relationship with a delica for over ten years now (since high school). Unfortunately, it has not been the same one. Its been 3 Plastic handles and 2 Left handed CF versions.

Recently, I was asked to do a Life Cycle Analysis on product that I love so I naturally turned to my Delica. To explain, a LCA looks at the environmental impacts of the four stages of the products materials. Extraction (from the earth), Manufacture, Use, and Disposal. Finally, part of the assignment is to try to offer alternatives to the manufacturing decisions made to reduce the environmental impact of the product.

The thing about these knives is that they are a fetishized utility object. So people are collecting them, and ostensibly not using those, but also probably have ones which have seen all sorts of use.

To me, the blade choices, Sal and his team make are non negotiable. I believe he chooses the best steel for the job. But while I love CF, and I know those editions are made in limited editions, it is still not very good for the environment.


A couple questions for you all.

1. I know there are lots of materials used for the scales in specialized or one offs. What do you think would be a good L.Edition production scale which is not petrochemical based?

2. The knife that you use every day, when and how are you using them when they break? How did they break?

3. Do you have old knives that you have used past usefulness? How and when did you decide it was time for a new knife?

4. What did you do with the old one?

5. Does sending them back to Spyderco get you a new knife? A new blade? do we bury them with a eulogy?

6. Would you ever think of tearing apart a couple of non working knives to make one that works?

7. Would you ever buy a ceramic bladed Spyderco?

Thanks in advance,

Kenzan

[The Deacon]

Hello all=-
I have been lurking and reading a lot of the love that is given to these knives. I myself have had a monogamous relationship with a delica for over ten years now (since high school). Unfortunately, it has not been the same one. Its been 3 Plastic handles and 2 Left handed CF versions.

Recently, I was asked to do a Life Cycle Analysis on product that I love so I naturally turned to my Delica. To explain, a LCA looks at the environmental impacts of the four stages of the products materials. Extraction (from the earth), Manufacture, Use, and Disposal. Finally, part of the assignment is to try to offer alternatives to the manufacturing decisions made to reduce the environmental impact of the product.

The thing about these knives is that they are a fetishized utility object. So people are collecting them, and ostensibly not using those, but also probably have ones which have seen all sorts of use.

To me, the blade choices, Sal and his team make are non negotiable. I believe he chooses the best steel for the job. But while I love CF, and I know those editions are made in limited editions, it is still not very good for the environment.


A couple questions for you all.

Okie dokie.

1. I know there are lots of materials used for the scales in specialized or one offs. What do you think would be a good L.Edition production scale which is not petrochemical based?

Real Tortoiseshell would be nice.

2. The knife that you use every day, when and how are you using them when they break? How did they break?

Only knives I've ever broken where Xacto blades and single edged razor blades when building plastic models. They snapped, usually because I twisted them too far.

3. Do you have old knives that you have used past usefulness? How and when did you decide it was time for a new knife?

No to part 1, as for part 2, whenever I feel like buying one, or two, or three.

4. What did you do with the old one?

Put it back in my display case?

5. Does sending them back to Spyderco get you a new knife? A new blade? do we bury them with a eulogy?

No to parts 1 & 2. Never buried a knife - did toss one Benchmade in the dumpster because I found it offensive to own.

6. Would you ever think of tearing apart a couple of non working knives to make one that works?

Never had one stop working, so hard to tell.

7. Would you ever buy a ceramic bladed Spyderco?

Ceramic blades tend to be brittle and next to impossible to sharpen and I don't find either of those traits desirable.

Thanks in advance,

Kenzan

YVW. Couple observations.

Of all the uses CF, G-10, and FRN are put to on this planet, knife handles represent a minute percentage. What's the motherboard of the computer you typed this on made of? How many million of those will wind up in land fills this year?

Fetishized is an interesting way of looking at the hobby of knife collecting. Would you say coin, stamp, or butterfly collectors fetishize the objects they collect?

Can you tell I'm not really into the whole "green" agenda?

[WhiteWillie]

Sorry Kenzan. Would like to help you but the topic and questions have given me a migraine.

[kenzan]

Deacon=-
Thanks for your quick reply.
I have read many of your posts, and they are thoughtful.
A couple answers to your own queries:

For the amount of material used in the knife industry, it is small in comparison to other areas. For instance: 85% of the new 787 dreamliner is CF. What are they going to do when they need to dismantle those?

Also, there are a lot of objects, fetishized or not, that have much higher impacts on the earth, but I love my knife. This is not really an excersise in how to "green" my life, but just to look at this particular object.


I think definitions #2 and #4 apply to many on these forums:

fet·ish also fet·ich (fět'ĭsh, fē'tĭsh) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. An object that is believed to have magical or spiritual powers, especially such an object associated with animistic or shamanistic religious practices.
2. An object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence: made a fetish of punctuality.
3. Something, such as a material object or a nonsexual part of the body, that arouses sexual desire and may become necessary for sexual gratification.
4. An abnormally obsessive preoccupation or attachment; a fixation.

Ref: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fetish


Finally, I do know what you mean about the green agenda. I prefer not to see it as an agenda, I prefer to look at it as a personal goal. I try to make choices which use less resources and energy. All of those choices are debatable, the state of manufacturing these days is an endless web.

Thanks
K.

[araneae]

I'll give it a go:
1. I've seen some really nice Japanese knives with bamboo handles. Titanium also comes to mind.
2. My knives do all sorts of basic daily tasks from cutting paper and to opening boxes and doing yard work. Never had a broken one.
3. Never used one up, just bought more because I like them.
4. Kept using it
5. If it reached the end of its useful life, I'd retire it and keep it for the memories
6. I would try if I had a few broken ones
7. no, same as Deacon

I also try to make choices that keep my environmental footprint small whenever possible. Every little bit helps. Buying a good knife that lasts (maybe a lifetime) is a sound eco-friendly choice in my opinion.

[cobrajoe]

I guess I’ll take the time to take your little survey;
1. There are plenty of materials that would make great scales that are not petrochemical based: stainless steel, wood, stones, mother of pearl, micarta (?). But one that I would love to see is just a simple smaller blade with black marble as a handle scale. I’m not sure why but I just love the look and feel of marble.
2. I do have knives that I’ve used past their usefulness, but none of them are spyderco. The most recent was a cheap butterfly knife where one of the handles just broke in two when I was flipping it.
3. I usually keep everything that I could possibly make into a new project, I love building and rebuilding. I do not remember a time where I bought a knife out of necessity, but I do like to have “the right tool for the right job”, which is probably more like “the right blade for the right cut”
4. I do not own a spydie that I haven’t used. Granted, there are some I keep for backup and a couple I use very lightly, but they do get used. A couple of times I got a blade that I was not a fan of, but I sold those so other people could enjoy them.
5. I guess you already have an answer for that.
6. Yes. Although, I am also willing to make a new handle for a blade out of raw stock. I have a couple of slabs of burgundy micarta just waiting for a project now.
7. Depends. Ceramic is very hard and can be made very sharp, but it is extremely unforgiving to any shocks or lateral forces. I think that a knife with a blade like this should be designed so that it is used in a manner that would prevent breakage. For now I am more than satisfied with the various steels that spyderco uses, and I think it would take a seriously impressive material to inspire a change.
I don’t think a large percentage of waste comes from a knife factory, I’m sure most of the cost of a knife comes from the processes used to shape the various materials. As far as this is concerned, I believe that sal said he was incorporating a wind farm on part of the factory’s land, this should not only help reduce the need of energy produced by coal and other “dirty fuels” but hopefully also reduce the price of knives coming out of Golden (hopefully :D )

[tonydahose]

i am glad others stepped up to this query...i just didnt feel like going through all of it. for the record i have never thrown out a spydie, lost a byrd though :mad: , but i am sure some neighborhood kid is cherishing his newly found tool.

[Slatts]

1. I know there are lots of materials used for the scales in specialized or one offs. What do you think would be a good L.Edition production scale which is not petrochemical based?

Elephant Ivory, but all the tree huggers have made it hard to import into the US. :mad: Just kidding. :D I actually work in the environmental arena and sustainable development, mostly in building developments, is one of our service offerings.

Sounds like a good exercise you've taken on to look critically at a man-made object and determine the pre-production and disposal impacts on the environment. More and more businesses are becoming more in tune with those concerns. And not just because they're environmentalists, but because it makes good business sense in the long run.

[Zenith]

I will answer your questions in due time but have limited time available now.

I believe that the impact f knives on the environment are far less than that of many other materials such as plastic used for parcels and shopping trips due to knives being able to last much longer. I have a SAK for about 15 years now. So the impact of that knife is far less than the amount of plastic available and being produced for commercial and economical purposes.

I live in a country where pollution is a a big concern for the environment as well as mines using natural resources.

I might be wrong but the impact of production in one knife I believe is far minimal than other problems facing our world.

With this said. I might be wrong and I do appreciate what you are trying to do and respect that. Every bit helps.

[zenheretic]

Go Green, Go Obsidian!

[mrappraisit]

I am only on my first cup of coffee, but I will answer the questions I can.
1.)For a limited edition I would say some sustainable wood. The only thing is sustainable grown/harvested woods are typically very boring to look at (ie less figure, tight boring grains so on..) For everyday use I would say an all SS knife would probably have the least impact because almost the whole thing is recyclable.
2.) Haven't been using :spyder: long enough to break one. I have never actually broken a knife, just damaged edges.
3.) I do have a few but My grandfather gave them to me. The style of knife that he favored is not really my favorite for EDC (slipjoints), hence buying newer style knives.
4.) They don't take up much room and they carry alot of good memories, they go in the sock drawer. Some day I will make a small hinged box to hold them.
5.) One reason we all like :spyder: is their product lines are fairly dynamic. I don't think they stock old patterns indefinitely, and the cost of holding that inventory would make the cost of new knives really high. If I was "done" wih a :spyder: and it was no longer useful I would dismantle it, dull the blade if necessary, and throw it in the recycle bin, if it had no sentimental meaning (was just a worker).
6.) of course, I am the same nut that tore apart a one day old Byrd to make it work better and to clean it :D
7.) Probably not.
I am concerned about the environment. My office recycles, we use low energy use bulbs, and buy recycled paper and file jackets, I drive an economical small car, my wife and I car pool twice a week, and we do the same energy saving measures in our home. Regarding knives, I agree with Deacon, these knives are such a small part of the entire scheme that the effect, compared to other things, in negligible. I also think that one of the most environmentally smart things you can do is buy good tools that don't need to be disposed of regularly, like a :spyder:
Interestingly Pfeil is a woodworking tool company that works towards sustainability, all detailed on their website.

All of a sudden I need another cup of coffee :D
Shawn

[whitefeather]

Why don't we all just live in mud huts and eat turnips and greens. Sal can make flint knives and we can buy them with chickens.

[KaliGman]

Can you tell I'm not really into the whole "green" agenda?

Why don't we all just live in mud huts and eat turnips and greens. Sal can make flint knives and we can buy them with chickens.

Thanks guys, now I don't need to say anything except---"See above".

[MANIXWORLD]

Knives should be the last thing to worry about being anti-eco friendly.
knives get shunned enough,and more than enough sheeple,just dont like knives period,and would probably go back to the stoneage,where alpha man was in 'charge'of everything and earth, still went through her cleansing cycles and alpha man passed on(died) because of that-back then(stoneage) things surely were more eco friendly.
These No knife peeps use their teeth to open packages-ouch!-even though they just have just one set of teeth,maybe they are also to lazy to walk to the shop, or use a bicycle,and use their airpolluting old cars to get to the shop,buy bread and break it with their hands,don't slice it with a knife./too much effort.
My point is don't worry about the knives,there's way to much other man made crap contamminating our beautiful planet.

[Raqudu]

It appears you are gathering information for a class project. As such, I will answer your questions in the spirit in which they were asked, without comment on the Green Agenda.

1. Stainless steel, aluminum, sustainable woods.
2. Have not broken one.
3. Have none past usefulness. I buy a new knife when I desire one.
4. Generally, the old ones are kept in storage and occasionally returned to use.
5. Have only sent them back for sharpening, never for rebuild.
6. Of course - I'm an engineer! I'd spend four hours to repair a $2.00 flashlight.
7. I would consider one.

[The CoPilot]

Can you tell I'm not really into the whole "green" agenda?

I gotta love your honesty, Paul! :D

[CKE]

I think the knife world(users/collectors) are a very small percentage of the impact on environmental issues....but, nontheless, still impacts the environment. G-10 and CF are some of the most toxic things I have had the pleasure in working with...environmental impact, YES!

I have never thrown away a knife, even if it is in parts I keep those parts...just in case.
All my knives have been used to some extent, maybe the odd one hasn't but that is a rarity.
As for natural materials for handles, well, wood but then some people are against that, bone, again some one will be against that.
With synthetics you are not using up a non renewable resource in some ways. Though they may not break down in a landfill for a very long time or ever, I imagine, most knives don't get thrown away unless badly broken. Hey the plastic handles will keep all those diapers company while they slowly rot away :D
Good questions

Craig

[The Deacon]

Glad to hear you've been here before kenzan. It means there's at least there's a chance you are already aware that Sal does not share my disdain for those who question the environmental impact of minor industries and is in fact already taking actions to reduce Spyderco's environmental footprint. If that is not the case, please do not hold my personal views against Spyderco. My views are strictly my own, and some of them I'm sure appall Sal. My status here is the same as yours, a guest - nothing more, nothing less.

I do disagree with your observations regarding classifying our knife collections as fetishes. For the record, I also have a small collection of fetishes. Does that mean I have a fetish fetish? You never said whether you considered other collections as fetishes so am not sure where you'd stand on that. No matter. However, while those fetishes were made by Native American craftsmen out of natural materials, I did not walk or bicycle to the reservation to purchase them and carry them home in a reusable cloth sack, and I cannot assure the world that no endangered bug was trampled in the process of their evolution from raw stone to finished product, so I'm confident the "greens" will find something to be upset over regarding them as well, that's what they do best. One could even argue that it's the "greens" who have a fetish, as their preoccupation with saving mankind from itself certainly seems abnormally obsessive to me. I guess we should all just be happy you don't think our attraction to knives falls under definition #3.

As for your decision to "look at this particular object" the question is still, why? These objects are small, long lasting, and not made of any particularly hazardous materials. FRN, Micarta, G-10, and CF laminates may not biodegrade, but they do not pollute per se if dumped in a landfill, they just take up space. All the plastic Spyderco has ever used, if reduced to powder, would probably not fill one 50' boxcar. How many (few) days worth of the similarly reduced remains of all the plastic grocery bags dispensed nationwide do you think it would take to fill one?

How about taking on telephones? Are you old enough to remember the virtually indestructible Bakelite rotary dial ones people were "forced" to lease from AT&T before their evil monopoly was demolished? How many phones do you now have? How often do you replace one, either because it broke or just to make a fashion statement? What became of the old one?

How about batteries - are you old enough to remember when most households had one big one in the car and a couple D cells in a flashlight? How many in the average home today? How many in yours?

Since your original post seems to imply that you find CF laminates particularly offensive, I'd also be interested in knowing why you think they are any more harmful to the environment than the much more widely used G-10. Frankly, since both use the same type resin and fiberglass does not appear to be any more biodegradable than carbon fiber, I find that rather puzzling. For that matter, from what I understand, much of the material now being labeled Micarta also uses that same resin, and the old style uses a phenolic resin based on formaldehyde, another "enviromentally unfriendly" material. But look on the bright side, nobody's selling battery powered electric folding knives - at least not yet.

I would be interested in what you would suggest for handle material. Keep in mind, the Vegans will be upset if you choose an animal byproduct such as horn or bone, the tree-huggers will writhe in anguish if you choose exotic wood, and some other group of environmental zealots will berate you if you choose coral. Heck, some will say that even the mining and processing of metal and stone is raping the earth. So, what would your material of choice be?

Do you have any chidren? Have you had, or would you consider having yourself sterilized? If not, why not? If so, would you and do you, encourage others to do the same? Do you contribute money to charities which feed people who have chosen to overpopulate areas which cannot sustain them? If so why? Can you not see that doing so is counterproductive? Do you advocate removing breeding incentives from the welfare and income tax systems? Would you penalize, rather than reward, overbreeders? Human beings cause pollution, so population control is the single most effective way to "save the earth" yet the one most people are unwilling to consider.

As for preferring not to see the green movement's "suggestions" as an agenda, I doubt your preference will have any impact on their activities. I hope you can understand that when someone's first post on a forum advocates a certain position, paranoid old cynics like myself tend to see you in the same light as the two neatly dressed ladies with bibles in hand ringing their doorbell.

[Chucula]

Thanks Deacon. I was thinking the same kind of thing but didnt feel like typing it all out. :D

Basically, the source of the problem is not the knives or toys or trash we make. We are the problem.

[A.P.F.]

1. I know there are lots of materials used for the scales in specialized or one offs. What do you think would be a good L.Edition production scale which is not petrochemical based?

Desert Ironwood, stainless steel, mastadon ivory.

2. The knife that you use every day, when and how are you using them when they break? How did they break?

I have never broken a knife in over 40 years of use. It seems that I use them to cut rather than pry.

3. Do you have old knives that you have used past usefulness? How and when did you decide it was time for a new knife?

I have never worn out a knife. My decision on buying a new knife is based strictly on funds. If I have the money, a new knife is inorder.

4. What did you do with the old one?

Old knives are either on display or in storage.

5. Does sending them back to Spyderco get you a new knife? A new blade? do we bury them with a eulogy?

Nope, nope, and nope. All of my knives will be passed to the next generation when I am done with them.

6. Would you ever think of tearing apart a couple of non working knives to make one that works?

Sure.

7. Would you ever buy a ceramic bladed Spyderco?

Chances are that if it was a Spyderco, I would buy it. That said, ceramic technology still has a long way to go.

Thanks in advance,

No problemo.